High medieval scandinavians?

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Hi there.

I'm looking at FOG since I've always had a soft spot for historical wargames; sadly the actual play quality has often been disappointing, especially in competitive games, so I've mostly ended up playing something else instead. With 28mm I can't bring myself to using Dipping, but with 15mm I think I can stomach it.

My question is in relation to a possible future release of the army I would be interested in collecting; a high medieval scandinavian one. Is any forthcoming? Late medieval scandinavia tends, in my opinion, to lack flavor as they've started to resemble continental armies too much, albeit still with a larger component of militia, but high medieval scandinavia is still fairly distinctive.

Are there any plans for such an army? Although it will presumeably be one list (a case can be made for separate lists: the primarily seaborne norwegian armies of the period, heavily based on the leidang organization/danish armies of a more continental pattern but still preserving the freeman levy characteristic of scandinavia, and the swedes somewhere in between) I think I can design a nice high medieval norwegian army with some self-imposed restrictions, although the model collecting will be a challenge. The army missed out in both the Storm of Arrows and Wolves from the Sea, and sadly the Osprey Scandinavian Medieval Armies (1100-1300) book, which I presume Slitherine bases their army list designs on, is a deeply flawed work that doesn't really reflect the current state of research on scandinavian warfare in the high middle ages, so I'm a bit worried about how an eventual scandinavian army list will turn out.

If FOG really is a good system, I will probably construct an army anyway, but it would be nice to do a norwegian (or genero-scandinavian) one. With my access to high medieval sources from the north, I hope I can create something interesting.

[philqw78]

If this post grabs any attention from the list writers they will probably ask for your sources so that a list could be more accurate if you have any expertise on the subject.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

I'll provide them with what I can, although a lot of it needs to be translated. Primarily, the problems with SMW1 is the artificial barrier at 1300, some really old interpretations of the available material, Nicolle's usual Ex Oriente Lux hobby horse, the old "lagged behind technologically" theory, the absence of scandinavian imagery not very easily accessible, McBride's own artistic licence issues, and the absence or little attention paid to several sources that really should have been given more space: the levy and retinue laws, for example. Plus, of course, the Samii, which can be considered fantasy elements as they are presented in the book.

I advise on contacting me by e-mail or PM.

[Rudy_Nelson]

Khurasan Miniatures is working on a nice range of 15mm Scandinavians for this era.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Khurasan Miniatures is working on a nice range of 15mm Scandinavians for this era.

Interesting...do you know what they're basing them on, and what era? I saw mention of late 14th century, which is really late medieval.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Ok,the Khurasan guys are working on a late medieval swedish set, so that's out of the picture. Guess it will be pick&choose from other sources.

Is it possible to confirm that there actually will be high medieval scandinavians in the Feudal Europe expansion?

[hammy]

Ok,the Khurasan guys are working on a late medieval swedish set, so that's out of the picture. Guess it will be pick&choose from other sources.

Is it possible to confirm that there actually will be high medieval scandinavians in the Feudal Europe expansion?

There will be a post Viking scandinavian list in the Feudal Europe book.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Ok,the Khurasan guys are working on a late medieval swedish set, so that's out of the picture. Guess it will be pick&choose from other sources.

Is it possible to confirm that there actually will be high medieval scandinavians in the Feudal Europe expansion?

There will be a post Viking scandinavian list in the Feudal Europe book.

Care to divulge anything that'll help me start off?

While I have your attention, are the desingers interested in any information at all? For example, the norwegian, danish and swedish levy laws from the midt-to-late 13th century/early 14th century and the norwegian hird regulation of c.1277 actually describes the supposed equipment the different wealth classes of the leidang levy and rank classes of the hird are supposed to appear at muster/service with...alll missed in Osprey's own publication on the matter. None of these have, as far as I know, ever been translated to english, at least not in any wide circulation.

[Hepius]

I wouldn't let the absence of any particular list stop you from playing FoG. The only time it really matters is in a tournament. When you play with your friends you can create any armies you can agree upon.

Hep

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

The point of looking at FOG is to have a scene where I can play competively.

Since the designers seem to answer similar questions in other fora I'll just bump this one.

A "post-viking" scandinavian army:

What sort of cavalry can it field? Kn or Cv? How many?

How are the hirdmen represented? Heavy armoured foot spearmen? Swordsmen? How many? Can one have Crossbow or longbow hirdmen?

What about the leidang troops? Different classes? Longbows? Crossbows? The others defensive spearmen?

Thanks in advance

[rbodleyscott]

A "post-viking" scandinavian army:

What sort of cavalry can it field? Kn or Cv?

Kn armoured (only before 1200) or heavily armoured, superior or average.

How many?

We are not allowed to divulge the exact details of forthcoming lists. Enough for up to 3 BGs. Also some mounted crossbowmen cavalry after 1200.

How are the hirdmen represented? Heavy armoured foot spearmen? Swordsmen?

Armoured HF HW with optional supporting foot archers.

How many?

50% more than Kn, but they share the same overal maximum. i.e. The more Kn you have, the less hirdmen.

Can one have Crossbow or longbow hirdmen?

No. Archers only as supporting LF.

What about the leidang troops?

Average HF Protected, Offensive spearmen, with optional LF archer support. Also some separately deployed LF archers

Different classes? Longbows? Crossbows? The others defensive spearmen?

The later list in Storm of Arrows is more complex and has these. (Although as the longbows were probably in mixed bodies with larger numbers of crossbowmen they are all treated as crossbows).

Late medieval scandinavia tends, in my opinion, to lack flavor as they've started to resemble continental armies too much, albeit still with a larger component of militia, but high medieval scandinavia is still fairly distinctive.

Actually the 1300-1500 Scandinavian lists in Storm of Arrows are very different indeed from the rest of Europe. The main foot are in mixed BGs of half armoured HW, half MF armoured crossbow, swordsmen

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Thank you. It doesn't sound unreasonable.

I guess I'll be going for a norwegian-style army with dismounted skutilsveiner and hirdmenn...although I don't understand their HW designation. Too bad there are no gestir to field...or is there?

Sad there is no crossbows or heavier bowmen. The 13th century laws make it pretty clear the hirdmen are expected to bring bows or "lock-bows", and the different leidang laws - from the Graagaas of the 11th century - demand that somewhere around half the leidang (one at every row-bench, which for the regular levy ships is equal to for every two men) equipped with bows in addition to whatever other gear they are expected to bring. But I guess it is also a question of play balance.

Actually the 1300-1500 Scandinavian lists in Storm of Arrows are very different indeed from the rest of Europe. The main foot are in mixed BGs of half armoured HW, half MF armoured crossbow, swordsmen

I was more thinking about late medieval scandinavian armies in real history.