Still feeling unbalanced towards Space Wolves in Multiplayer

[Mattias_Bloodskull]

Soooo. Played multiplayer again as Space Wolves against Orks, and still feeling ridiculously unbalanced, as per attachment. Is this still the same for everyone? Link below: -

also, thanks Slitherine, for not allowing Steam screenshot urls

See attachment, no one gets rolls this good and in Vegas if you did, enjoy sleeping with the desert...

[zhukodim]

Yup, I Think I have 2-3 games with 3200:0 as Space marines. Very few combinations of units works right now for orks. So far ~45 games finished and 3 loses. 2 of them as orks and one space marine. Lost as space marine on old patch. Before major nerfs for orks plus "better selection" for force pulls. Was the best and closest game so far. ork player had the best possible list for orks. 2 wagon transports, 2 flash gits, Wierd boy, 2 bikes and wagon with big gun. At the end Ork player said something like this : If I can not win with this list - I can not win as orks at all.

Why "better selection" is not good? Because right now I see more heavy lists for space marines.

1. Dreadnaughts - imho the best non ellite unit in the game for the price. Right now I often see 1-2 in lists.
2. Predator - worse version of dread. Who need those stormbolters if orks infantry is not a threat?
3. lazz cannons waaay too effective vs everything. Way too powerfull when you can move them and shot 4 times. With rino it is became broken for 90% ork lists.
4. rockets squad the same as lass cannon. SA bit worse vs heavy targets but have a massive anti-infantry ability. With rino same as lass cannon. Just not a fun to play against for ork players.
5. Great wolf. Well yeah. Only flash gits can kill it. Do not have them or transport for them? Just ignore him and try to kill at least others units. Hard to ignore because he can do ~ 200 damage vs wagon level side armor in one turn from his max range.
6. Knights. Same as Great wolf. Ignore him and try to kill others units, Btw his shield works from any direction. I think a bug?
7. Land raider. Orks can not counter lists with this unit in it.
8. terminators. Melee version and with bolters plus 3 heroes. Forgot names of 2 heroes. First Great wolf and 2 others for 380 points. If you have 2 rino, at least 2 of those termies and one hero - go and kill ork in melee. Orks can not into melee right now. ( only deff dread can )
9. Marines on wolfs also very effective units for price vs orks.

Those are the main units that I use as space marines and have the hardest time to play against.

Now lets see what orks have:

1. killa kans both version overpriced compare to Dreadnaughts. I mean just try to play with them. Shoota version played better at older patchs ( vs~70-80 armor). Clearly some versions changed that. Maybe last patch with damage formula change? 280 price
2. Deff dread. Very cool in melee. But you never will do melee attacks vs decent marine players. 380 price for cover. With nerfed armor in last patch btw.
3. Bikes. They have crazy firepower. Good. But I found this unit like a big noob trap. Many new ork players think that if you nearly killed dredd or predator in one turn it is a win. No, its not. Because those bikes can be removed by any marine units at next turn. Also not many players can use it for such effect. Simply because it is not easy. 280 points price.
4. Mega nobs. Good with transports, Without food for lazz cannons, rockets, dredd etc. Vs hard targets better use flanking shots. In front they can do low damage sometimes.
5. Flash gits. Monters in wagons. But only vs few marine lists.
6. Nobz both version. just do not use them in MP. No damage, can not survive long enough vs everything for 220 and 260 points.
7. Shoota boys was as bad as nobz but now became lot better. Problem is - everything can destroy infantry way to fast. True for marines bolter squads also.
8. Basic boys. Love those guys. But you need to understand that for every 3-4 of those units marine player will have something better. And the only role for them - cover. Sorry boyz - no glorious charges for you.
9.Gorkanaut. At first I thought he is a beast. But I found that you can counter his main gun. ( I like that you can counter such monsters, too bad you can not do something like this with marines big boys) Just use dredds, knight together to each other and Gorkanaut gun wil spread damage between them. Can be killed very fast if there is no hero with 30% shield or wierd boy in list.
10. helicopters. I do not found how anyone can use them right.
11. buggy. Same as helicopters.
12. Wagon with huge gun. 480 points. Massive front armor. Easy to kill with side shots. Have not see 2 of them in one list after 2 patchs. Can do pretty well if marine player do not know how to deal with wagons.
13. Hero with shield for 2 tiles. Great unit. Blob your trash and hope for the best. Only works because right now there is no reason to take victory points.
14. Wierd boy. Love the design of this unit. Great for its price.
15. Big boss here with waagh ability. Worse than any of big 3 heroes of space marines. Main thing seems like Waagh. But infantry just bad in this game right now.

Thats just from my expereince. I did not cover all the units. Later can add more if someone can read it without eye bleeding. 50% games as orks and marines. Also we need victory conditions. Right now we do not have them. I mean 12-16 turns for battle? One army destroying another in 3-4 turns.

Sorry for bad english. I hope you can understand. I also posting in steam forum more.

[Edgewalker]

+1 to everything said above.
I played quite a bit (also tabletop for over 15 years) and that's exactly my experiences as well.
It is possible to win with Orks, but they are vastly underpowered/overpriced.
They are balanced quite well towards single player though, where they use like 10 x point limit of a player. I really had fun with the SP campaign I must say.
Also I feel that the infantry needs a serious boost as right now it is useful only to tackle the opponent for your shooters, or as a tarpit to buy some time.

Gonna try the patch tommorow, after I finish all my current games

[zhukodim]

Gonna try the patch tommorow, after I finish all my current games

New beta patch quite good. I feel like Devs noticed some of my posts.

Agreed about infantry. The only life savers for them - those semi-random lists right now.

There is some of price changes in the beta patch:

Orks:

1. Deff Dred 380 ->320 Good change after armor nerf.

2. Warbiker 280 -> 300 This unit very hard to use but yeah have crazy firepower.

3. Slugga Nobz 220 -> 200 those dudes was as bad as pre lasts patchs shoota boys. Do not think thats help them. But at least something. They damage often are very low maybe because 0 armor piersing in melee.
I think Nobz should use only 2 transport slot per model. ( 8 full unit ) 3 per models for such units is just seems wrong.

4. Deffcoptas 200 -> 180.

5. Battle Wagon Supa Kannon 480 -> 340. Massive buff. Maybe because new damage formula for power armor? Need to test.

6. Battle Wagon transport 400 -> 300. Transport abuse nerf. We will see how it works. Again massive price drop. May have huge impact. Waiting for dirt cheap orky trucks. DLC maybe? =P

7. Killa Kans 280 -> 240. Nice to see. Also do not understand whats wrong with shoota version after last changes to damage formula. Tested it in many MP games. Unit just can not do damage vs 70 armor from his best range. Interessting because bikes have the same stats on they guns. And they do damage.

8. Flash Gits 320 -> 360. Ah mighty Gits. Current patch allready fixed his firepower vs 70-80 armor from 6-7 range. Now power armor became stronger and transports weaker. (main source of power for flash gits). Maybe Orks can survive with others price drops. Again need to test.

9. Krumpa 300 -> 260 Decent change.

10. Skorcha nobz no price changes? Hm.

Space marines :

1. Long Fang Lasscannon unit 280 -> 300 Was way too strong with old transports mechanic.

2. Long Fang Missile unit 280 -> 260.

3. Predator 360 -> 300. Yup drednaught was just better and cheaper.

4. Skyclaw 160 -> 120 Glad for those guys.

5. Great Wolf: Logan Grimnar 420 -> 460. Yep waaaay too problematic to deal with.

6. Wolf priest. Im just want to share my opinion about this unit. In single player this unit have impressive power for sure. But in multiplayer heal abilitys are a LOT weaker. Because player will focus fire units better. Maybe some changes for his abilitys or new one.
For example wierdboy a very interesting unit to play with or against in multiplayer.

I copied my post from steam forum.

I can write some more thoughts about problematic units if someone interested in it. ~70 MP games finished already. ( only 3 loses ) Can not stop playing it.

[Edgewalker]

I'll try to voice some opinion about changes as well. Gonna use your format Zhukodim, I hope you don't mind

Orks:

1. Deff Dred 380 ->320 - Good change, I agree. He is actually quite useful. Give him boosted armor back as well and with the new price he'll be golden. He's way harder to use properly than Dreadnought so his overall damage right now is not too great. He definitely needs more survivability - otherwise it's one turn burst and bye bye. Sometimes not even that.

2. Warbiker 280 -> 300 - Bad change - It's not even a glass cannon, it's a wet-paper cannon. It melts as soon as anything as much as looks at him. Price should be lowered significantly (220) and dmg from its guns toned down a bit. 300 is absurd. Think 3 Dreadnoughts vs 3 Warbike squads.

3. Slugga Nobz 220 -> 200 - Is it even a change? Now the most useless unit is a bit cheaper. Still never ever gonna field them. Right now they are worth 140 points at maximum.

4. Deffcoptas 200 -> 180 - Price drop is fine but they need the damage output boosted significantly. Right now it's rush, one shot and then they vanish. I'm fine with them being a glass cannon but give them a cannon for God's sake.

5. Battle Wagon Supa Kannon 480 -> 340 - Good change. Now should be on pair with Marine units. Next step: give us trukks

6. Battle Wagon transport 400 -> 300. - It's better than rhino, with better armor, guns, more transport slots - it seems fair that it's more expensive. 300 seems fine.

7. Killa Kans 280 -> 240. Good change but I feel they need a strenght boost as well. Right now their performance is a bit underwhelmed by bad aim, bad range, bad mobility, bad survivability and bad melee capability. Still they are far from being among the worst units in Orks roster.

8. Flash Gits 320 -> 360. - I'd prefer slight damage reduction to price increase. I don't like the idea of Ork army made by a low number of elite units. Fluff wise it's bad. And they were not THAT good in tabletop.

9. Krumpa 300 -> 260 - Okey, I guess. Cheaper is better.

10. Skorcha nobz - I forgot that such a unit exist. Nobody ever fielded them. Not even once. I wonder why. I don't even know what their price is but I bet it's at least twice too high.


Space Marines :

1. Long Fang Lasscannon unit 280 -> 300 and Long Fang Missile unit 280 -> 260 - I think they are in good place right now. If anything, I'd increase the price of Missile units not Lascannon though. I'd say they are a bit better thanks to anti infantry potential, cover blowing purposes and overall utility factor and not much worse against vehicles. But that's just a personal taste, I can live with that change.

3. Predator 360 -> 300. Nope, Make Dreadnought more expensive not Predator cheaper. It's fine where it is.

4. Skyclaw 160 -> 120 Good change. I love this unit but they were too expensive before. Now I can field them, W00t !

5. Great Wolf: Logan Grimnar 420 -> 460. Yep waaaay too problematic to deal with. - it's true

6. Wolf priest. " In single player this unit have impressive power for sure. But in multiplayer heal abilitys are a LOT weaker. Because player will focus fire units better. Maybe some changes for his abilitys or new one." - +1 to what you said. He's not plain bad, just lacks some extra utility.

What's funny is that I'm a diehard Ultramarines player, but in this game I feel that Orks really really need some love

[zhukodim]

Edgewalker, I feel like it is a great discussion. Maybe it is better to start the same topic in steam forum? Because lets face it, very few people use this forum.

Plus such discussions can help for new players. And in general can caught interest of more players. We can copy our posts.

[Edgewalker]

No problem. But I'm not so sure if it's such a great discussion since I agree with almost everything you say
Or maybe "great minds think alike"
Should we copy it or something?

[zhukodim]

No problem. But I'm not so sure if it's such a great discussion since I agree with almost everything you say
Or maybe "great minds think alike"
Should we copy it or something?

Yep I think we should. I will start it.

Done:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/502370/di ... 797612415/

[Dizzy_slith]

It doesnt matter what the prices are if you dont see the units in the force selection list. Has THAT been fixed or are we still at the mercy of Straylight's philosophy that random is the only way to go? I havent played the game for weeks... Its just not any fun anymore when you cant select the force you want and you've played the hell out of the randomness that is the anemic unit selection setup.

[IainMcNeil]

The last patch added much more variety to unit selection. We still have more to do but its on the list.