Dunkirk

[bjarmson]

Most scenarios I have few qualms with. I do think the Japanese and US hypothetical scenarios are ridiculous, derived from fallacious assumptions that have slight basis in fact, but that's okay, I just tend not to play them anymore. Which brings us to Dunkirk. This scenario has significant flaws.

First, the Allies outnumber the Germans by something like 4+-1 at the start of the game. You simply do not have enough German CPs to purchase much armor, or any artillery or antiair units (which I understand the Germans had), because every available CP has to go for infantry and a few tanks. If one played this scenario from the Allied side it would take fewer than 10/20 turns to annihilate the Germans. German inability to cover/hold the territory it takes permits the computer to constantly squirt individual units (often with only a few HPs) into the German rear, requiring the Germans to detach 1 or more units to deal with these incursions, units that can't be spared. As far as I know this type of tactic never occurs in reality. Human units tend to resist being offered as sacrificial lambs, but this is a legitimate tactic with pixel units. It shouldn't be. Giving the Germans 5/10 more infantry units would probably solve this problem, since the Germans wouldn't be stretched so thin. Alternately giving the allies a smaller starting advantage (if the Allies had had a 4-1 advantage in forces they would't be retreating), fewer HPs per unit (they supposedly reeling in defeat, not at full strength), or supply problems (they're surrounded) could yield similar results.

Second, just how do you win this scenario? It says kill xx number of enemy units. But this number seems to change as units are evacuated. Also killing the ships units are on does not add to total units killed (WTF). I realized this after killing about 5 ships evacuating troops, a complete waste of time?!? At the end of the game I controlled Dunkirk and had killed all the enemy units I could see. The game told me I needed 1 more kill, but there were no more Allied units to kill. The game announces my defeat. Again WTF?

Third, rewards for missions accomplished. Two completely useless German torpedo boats that are easily sunk by Brit destroyers, yet also incapable of inflicting any real damage on evacuation transports. Captured allied equipment consists of one (1) antiaircraft unit. It's of absolutely no use by the time it becomes available. In reality, large numbers of transport units were captured. Getting 6, or so, trucks would be great for subsequent scenarios, allowing many infantry units to be motorized. The two commanders are fine.

This scenario needs to be completely rethought. It's not really playable or anywhere near realistic as is.

[Andy2012]

Most scenarios I have few qualms with. I do think the Japanese and US hypothetical scenarios are ridiculous, derived from fallacious assumptions that have slight basis in fact, but that's okay, I just tend not to play them anymore. Which brings us to Dunkirk. This scenario has significant flaws.

First, the Allies outnumber the Germans by something like 4+-1 at the start of the game. You simply do not have enough German CPs to purchase much armor, or any artillery or antiair units (which I understand the Germans had), because every available CP has to go for infantry and a few tanks. If one played this scenario from the Allied side it would take fewer than 10/20 turns to annihilate the Germans. German inability to cover/hold the territory it takes permits the computer to constantly squirt individual units (often with only a few HPs) into the German rear, requiring the Germans to detach 1 or more units to deal with these incursions, units that can't be spared. As far as I know this type of tactic never occurs in reality. Human units tend to resist being offered as sacrificial lambs, but this is a legitimate tactic with pixel units. It shouldn't be. Giving the Germans 5/10 more infantry units would probably solve this problem, since the Germans wouldn't be stretched so thin. Alternately giving the allies a smaller starting advantage (if the Allies had had a 4-1 advantage in forces they would't be retreating), fewer HPs per unit (they supposedly reeling in defeat, not at full strength), or supply problems (they're surrounded) could yield similar results.

Second, just how do you win this scenario? It says kill xx number of enemy units. But this number seems to change as units are evacuated. Also killing the ships units are on does not add to total units killed (WTF). I realized this after killing about 5 ships evacuating troops, a complete waste of time?!? At the end of the game I controlled Dunkirk and had killed all the enemy units I could see. The game told me I needed 1 more kill, but there were no more Allied units to kill. The game announces my defeat. Again WTF?

Third, rewards for missions accomplished. Two completely useless German torpedo boats that are easily sunk by Brit destroyers, yet also incapable of inflicting any real damage on evacuation transports. Captured allied equipment consists of one (1) antiaircraft unit. It's of absolutely no use by the time it becomes available. In reality, large numbers of transport units were captured. Getting 6, or so, trucks would be great for subsequent scenarios, allowing many infantry units to be motorized. The two commanders are fine.

This scenario needs to be completely rethought. It's not really playable or anywhere near realistic as is.

I kind of agree with you. Up to today, Blitzkrieg is pretty good, best DLC so far. Some brown photo blanks in events, but thats it.

Dunkirk is a bit botched, though. First, I didn't get the commander after shooting down the Spitfire. I already had gotten one in Poland - does that mean the slot for the fighter commander is "full"? (I want my rewards.)

@ bjarmson: My way to crush this scenario is to deploy my units in two pincers. One weakish with some infantry, anti-tank and two arty in the south. Slowly push north here and don't overextend. The enemy outnumbers you, as you said. The second pincer is where I deploy mobile artillery, my panzers, panzer commander, elite infantry, all fighters and Stukas. This superpower-pincer pushes towards Brugge and then Oostende. The speedboats attack transports with their torpedoes, and sink one, and then get annihilated. The pincer then pushes towards Dunkirk along the coast, the southern pincer slowly follows AI. begins retreating then. Should be at Dunkirk around turn 12 - 15. Then mopup.

@devs: bjarmson is right. After Dunkirk, I get full view of the map to mop up. However, the enemy still outnumbers me 3:1 and oddly pushes for my original starting points. I crushed the Brits in Dunkirk in around 12 turns and then spent 18 turns getting back to where I started and grinding away trapped units. This was weird and just a boring slog. Suggestion: After seizing Dunkirk and destroying 12 Brits, all French units turn neutral or blow up or something. This would be historically accurate and reward the Blitzkrieg approach to win an otherwise unwinnable scenario.
BTW, still good job. Enjoy this one a lot more than winter war.

[Andy2012]

@ bjarmson: Oh yeah, you need to kill the bunkers, too. They count as units as well. Basically wipe everything from the map that isnt Wehrmacht.
I would prefer an objective order as "Knock out Belgium" (keep it the current way), then "seize Dunkirk and destroy 12 British units", done. Right now, this is a bit tedious.

[wolfpinguin]

In the latest version : 2.9.6d

German version,

the same problem recurred as in my post :

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p628550

So can it be solved soon please

W.

[adherbal]

The game told me I needed 1 more kill, but there were no more Allied units to kill. The game announces my defeat.

Any chance you have a savegame of this?

As for the Allies having more units: This is balanced by the fact that they have 0 income, while the Germans get 25 per turn. Over the course of 35 turns, that equals to almost 30 infantry units.

The best way to beat this scenario is by converging on Lille once Belgium has been defeated in the north and the initial defense/counter attacks have been delt with in the south. Ignoring the Lille army will cause them to attack your rear, while threatening that position will cause various frontline units to retreat (first to Ypres, then to Dunkirk). Besides the ones around Lille, bunkers generally self-destruct when the defense has been bypassed.

[Andy2012]

The best way to beat this scenario is by converging on Lille once Belgium has been defeated in the north and the initial defense/counter attacks have been delt with in the south. Ignoring the Lille army will cause them to attack your rear, while threatening that position will cause various frontline units to retreat (first to Ypres, then to Dunkirk). Besides the ones around Lille, bunkers generally self-destruct when the defense has been bypassed.

Well, if is that scripted and depends on playing the mission mostly 'just right', why not be more specific in the mission briefing? It's still fun, though.

[bjarmson]

I beat the scenario. I sat in Dunkirk for at least five turns. I killed evacuation ships, which the computer doesn't seem to recognize as killed units or give credit for (if the ship sinks, isn't the unit killed?). There were no more units on the map for me to kill. Whether, you effectively get more units over the course of 35 turns doesn't mean much early in the game due to the huge disparity of German units (few) to Allied units (many). Having to constantly repair German units (particularly fragile air units that must be moved to an airfield) gives the Allies a huge early advantage. Plus, the computer regularly runs units into your rear areas constantly forcing you to deal with line of supply problems. The fact is the Allies start with 3/4 times more units of all kinds than the Germans, which is a very big deal until at least the midpoint of the game. Even with the 0 supply factor, I could easily defeat the Germans if I played as the Allies simply by overwhelming them in 10 turns (how realistic is that). All Allied units start at full strength and have full movement, whereas many should be damaged with movement limitations. More German infantry should become available as the game progresses or the Germans should have garrison units to hold towns and vital areas from bogus incursions by Allied units.

The previous Blitzkrieg scenarios have been nicely handled. Dunkirk lacks realism and has vague, poorly designed mission objectives. Killing evacuation ships and capturing Dunkirk have no value, you receive no credit for either. The computer regularly uses the bogus tactics noted above, because the Germans, due to an unrealistically contrived unit scarcity (I expect the 'playability factor' will soon be mentioned as the rational for this), simply must leave much of the map undefended. The battle of Dunkirk isn't represented in this scenario. A decent scenario of the battle of Dunkirk could probably be made (such as the temporarily idled German Army Group A showing up in the south around turn 10), but this isn't it. You can win, but lose (somewhat like the US Presidential election).

[DirkW]

I found the Dunkirk scenario rather good. Totally ahistoric but tense. I went with one pincer directly on the left side of the map to Dunkirk and with the right to Ostende/Newport. That brought on a good moving battle with an french counterattack from Lille witch nearly cut my right pincer out of supply (but just nearly). Having historical strong units would take all scenarios into combined arms exercises and that would be boring. The one thing I had to wonder about was the one missing unit!! It was a french strongpoint,which I originally bypassed and didn´t consider a unit at all and so I had to search for the missing unit in the end.

[ut446z12]

Couldn't agree more with the posts above. Same issue, played this scenario several times only to be told I had one allied unit left therefore failed. Reminded me of the same issue with Winter War in the last scenario that also required every unit to be destroyed. After investing hours at several attempts on this scenario to locate all units (I'd captured Dunkirk, obliterated the Brits) this result is demoralizing and detracts from the game. Victory conditions need to be changed. I'm hoping the developers take note, but so far their track record has not been good.

[Erik2]

'Kill all units'-objectives is ok as long as they are not primary objectives. Better use them in secondary objectives only.
It is very frustrating missing that last elusive unit and thus lose the scenario.

[Shards]

Can I check, are you guys getting the trigger where the map is revealed after you've achieved dominance (which rather helps with finding the last enemy units!)

[MikeAP]

Dunkirk is one of the worst scenarios I've ever played for OOB.

As the original post mentioned, you are severely outnumbered and it is impossible to cover EVERY area of the map where the enemy tries to penetrate your lines...and they are able to focus EVERYWHERE, with the amount of units that they have.

I'm curious to see if anyone else noticed, but the AI is programmed to attack your deployment area, so I spent most of the game playing whack-a-mole with single enemy units that went behind my lines as I attacked to the west.

At one point, the entire map was reversed, with me holding the original allied starting positions and the allies holding my deployment zone. Ridiculous stuff, and typical for the Order of Battle series. Ridiculous. Not fun. Not balanced.

[mhladnik]

My 2 cents: I was worried about this scenario after reading the reports, but I had a good experience with it. The bunkers in the rear, once bypassed, self-destructed and/or disappeared (Belgian ones). I did focus on Belgium in the north first (one secondary Belgian VP was enough to make them capitulate) and then worked on joining forces with the southern army, being careful of not giving the enemy free rein behind my lines, before pushing together for the coast. The AI responded well, blocked me and retreated as necessary. Enemy units already evacuated to a ship transport properly reduced the number of remainig units I still had to eliminate. Once I achieved dominance, the mop-up event triggered and the map was fully revealed. (The map has lots of railways you can use for quick transport in case you spot an enemy you overlooked, though I didn't have to use that.) The only bug/glitch: even after destroying the Spitfire, I did not receive the promised Air Commander (plus some brown images for certain events). I think the main improvement to the scenraio can be done already by making the briefing more specific: strongly encourage the player to eliminate Belgium first, for instance (optionally also suggest converging on Lille afterwards).

[MikeAP]

Can I check, are you guys getting the trigger where the map is revealed after you've achieved dominance (which rather helps with finding the last enemy units!)

The map was revealed for me, but certain units such as bunkers, aren't included in the unit count required to win.

[MikeAP]

I don't understand why the primary objective is kill X French units? That wasn't the historical objective of the operation.

If the in-game Primary objective was seize Dunkirk to prevent the British Army from escaping then it would make more sense, instead of playing hide-and-seek with French units that are nowhere near Dunkirk (...?). Maybe secondary objective would be the destruction of the British Army (x amount of British units)

[mhladnik]

Interestingly, in my gameplay experience, the enemy did not threaten me on all fronts. I moved the western army north to eliminate Belgium, the enemy did not move towards my staging area. Once I defeated the first enemy line with the southern army, I moved it west and the enemy did not come down from the north. The aggressive and mobile enemy units were moving on the Lille-Ypres-Dunkirk axis.

[Shards]

I'm curious to see if anyone else noticed, but the AI is programmed to attack your deployment area, so I spent most of the game playing whack-a-mole with single enemy units that went behind my lines as I attacked to the west.

We should certainly look to fix this bit by providing some off-map supply to the South-West. Losing that one city and then having your whole army out of supply isn't much fun.

I'm fine with being somewhat outnumbered down there though, the Allies have a concentration of forces in the pocket whilst the Germans are stretched out on a blitzkrieg. It feel right that I should have to work to defend against break-outs down there.

[MikeAP]

I'm fine with being somewhat outnumbered down there though, the Allies have a concentration of forces in the pocket whilst the Germans are stretched out on a blitzkrieg. It feel right that I should have to work to defend against break-outs down there.

I'm ok with that, but they should be set in a defensive mode, not attacking my deployment area at random points in the scenario.

[hrafnkolbrandr]

I just captured Oostend with paratroops to knock Belgium out of the war early and then threw everything I had at the british and french.

Then I deployed Stukas at Oostend to take out the destroyers and transports. Taking out transport ships reduced the number of units I had to destroy, so it was "counting" them.

Only issue I had was that I had to hunt down one french recon car. Almost lost the scenario but caught and destroyed him on the last turn.

[Alexander1]

One of the secondary objective in Dunkirk scenario was "shoot down Spitfire". Promised reward is the new fighter commander. I did not manage to shoot it down on its first appearance - it escaped of the map for repairs with 1 hp. I finally shot it down after it came back to the map. But no commander picture appeared after that. I already had Hans Batcher (as bomber commander) and Gerhard Barkhorn (as fighter). Was the third one too much?

It is not a big deal in this campaign as German air superiority is overwhelming. However, in the following campaigns (we all hope they will come soon) when things will start to get more complicated for Germany and ability to import core force, this additional commander will be very needed.