Rise of Rome legionaries

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:28 am

Iron (coloured) chainmail and bronze helmets, or iron (coloured) for Late Republicans ?

Goldsworthy seems to say LR legions had bronze helmets, but this a/ looks a bit odd combined with iron chainmail, and b/ seems to be unusual in the painted examples I can find on the web.

Neither of which are necessarily decent arguments to counter Goldsworthy I admit, but it seems odd that he is definate about this yet no-one seems to have picked it up .

tim

(and Ive not even started asking about shield patterns and colours yet...)

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:28 pm

madaxeman wrote:Iron (coloured) chainmail and bronze helmets, or iron (coloured) for Late Republicans ?

Goldsworthy seems to say LR legions had bronze helmets, but this a/ looks a bit odd combined with iron chainmail, and b/ seems to be unusual in the painted examples I can find on the web.

Neither of which are necessarily decent arguments to counter Goldsworthy I admit, but it seems odd that he is definate about this yet no-one seems to have picked it up .

tim

(and Ive not even started asking about shield patterns and colours yet...)

I'm running into the same thing since I've assembled a Late Republican Roman army in 15mm (Old Glory) and am prepping them now. Cowan in Warrior 71: Roman Legionary 58 BC-AD 69states the montefortino helmet was common among the legionaries, usually bronze, 'occasionally' iron. He also writes that the coolus was in evidence as well, a good thing, since that's the helment my Old Glory figures are wearing

Bronze might have been cheaper to manufacture at this time? I also suspect these helmets may have been reused by various soldiers and thus been around for a while.

FWIW, tunic wise I am going with white

Cheers,

Dale

williamob · Post by **williamob** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:49 pm

Goldsworthy also says that the signifiers wore bronze scale mail. I've never seen them depicted that way, but he does have a picture of some artificact bronze scale mail later on. I agree on the white tunics as well, though again, you don't seem to see them depicted that way too often. I'd be interested in seeing what a whole army would look like in 15mm with white tunics and red shields.

Will

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:58 pm

williamob wrote:Goldsworthy also says that the signifiers wore bronze scale mail. I've never seen them depicted that way, but he does have a picture of some artificact bronze scale mail later on. I agree on the white tunics as well, though again, you don't seem to see them depicted that way too often. I'd be interested in seeing what a whole army would look like in 15mm with white tunics and red shields.

Will

I see about posting some pics when I've actually go the army painted

I think it will look good. The other thing I'm considering is crest color-- black seems most frequently mentioned. White and red have both been mentioned in various sources as well. Black is a good contrasting color for bronze as well as the white tunics so that will probably be my choice.

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:02 pm

sounds like helmets should have mostly bronze, but maybe some iron then

I'm aiming to differentiate my units by having different off-white shades for the tunics of each - although I may end up with some units with mixed solours as well for either veteran - or maybe newly raised - legion units.

Now, shield colours - not all jst red ?

rickf · Post by **rickf** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:28 pm

My Late Republican Romans (some call them Marian or Caesarian) have mainly bronze helmets with some iron, the closer you get to the early empire the more iron ones there would have been. In reality it wasn't a fashion show and they weren't as uniform as today, if it was functional but 100 years old it would have been worn. There is no real historical reference but my legion all has the same shield design, the same tunic (off white with red for the centurions signifers etc) and centuries/cohorts all have different plumes. As I say no real evidence but it looks ok.
Cheers
Rick

williamob · Post by **williamob** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:55 pm

I want to say that I've read that the plumes were for the most part horsehair (though I can't seem to cite a source at the moment), which has lead me to thinking that they should be some sort of naturally occuring "horse hair" color. Primarily black, conceivably this could be where the occasional "blonde" one comes from.

What do you guys think the centurion's helmet should be? I've read a few things that indicate the centurions started to have the transverse plumes during this period, but as far as 15mm figures go, it seems like the tranverse aren't around until the imperial period (along with enough other uniform and equipment changes to make the figure not "match").

Of course, if you watch Rome , good ol' Lucius Verenus (with he and Titus Pullio both being centurions of the 11th legion, not the 13th in De Bello Gallico), he's sporting the transverse crest, apparently black with some reddish tint at Alesia. Yes, it's TV, but at least it's good for ideas.

I think in theory there can be "color schemes" for legions with shields and tunics. Red seems most dominant, though I think most of the red shield credit comes from the one or two that have been recovered as artifacts being red. The Osprey books have some good examples of blue and green as well. Can't remember the historical precedent for the blue, but I want to say that the green has some sort of tie to egypt/ maybe massadda and the 10th legion?

I think the idea of having darker "white" tunics for the veteran legions is sound, though I have to confess, I'm not sure I'm able to commit to that level of detail myself.

Do you guys consider a "legion" a battlegroup? I want to say I saw a reference to considering a legion 2 battlegroups somewhere? Either way, there would at least seem to be some merit to having some battlegroups of different colors to keep track of things a little easier.

Sorry, lots of rambling points here (though I am starting to get excited that I might break out of the Peasant avatar!)

will05 · Post by **will05** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:16 am

I would go with bronze helmets as their seems to be enough doubt to go either way. Bronze seems to me to be more aesthetically pleasing as it may leave them a bit grey if all their metal were iron. When in doubt, I go for what I think will looks nicest.

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:53 pm

williamob wrote:I want to say that I've read that the plumes were for the most part horsehair (though I can't seem to cite a source at the moment), which has lead me to thinking that they should be some sort of naturally occuring "horse hair" color. Primarily black, conceivably this could be where the occasional "blonde" one comes from.

What do you guys think the centurion's helmet should be? I've read a few things that indicate the centurions started to have the transverse plumes during this period, but as far as 15mm figures go, it seems like the tranverse aren't around until the imperial period (along with enough other uniform and equipment changes to make the figure not "match").

Of course, if you watch Rome , good ol' Lucius Verenus (with he and Titus Pullio both being centurions of the 11th legion, not the 13th in De Bello Gallico), he's sporting the transverse crest, apparently black with some reddish tint at Alesia. Yes, it's TV, but at least it's good for ideas.

I think in theory there can be "color schemes" for legions with shields and tunics. Red seems most dominant, though I think most of the red shield credit comes from the one or two that have been recovered as artifacts being red. The Osprey books have some good examples of blue and green as well. Can't remember the historical precedent for the blue, but I want to say that the green has some sort of tie to egypt/ maybe massadda and the 10th legion?

I think the idea of having darker "white" tunics for the veteran legions is sound, though I have to confess, I'm not sure I'm able to commit to that level of detail myself.

Do you guys consider a "legion" a battlegroup? I want to say I saw a reference to considering a legion 2 battlegroups somewhere? Either way, there would at least seem to be some merit to having some battle groups of different colors to keep track of things a little easier.

Sorry, lots of rambling points here (though I am starting to get excited that I might break out of the Peasant avatar!)

What I can't recall off the top of my head is whether or not crests were dyed--or if this is known or not. It seems likely to me.

Re: the centurion's helmet--seems likely to be traverse in this period but given the number of legions being raised in the 1st century B.C. even if they were supposed to be traverse they may not have been. Depicting the centurion (well, depicting one or a few out of the 60 in a legion

is a personal choice--I like the uniform look of a mass of legionaries, but that's just me but including them (especially in 25mm/28mm) can be a very nice touch.

Loved "Rome", btw. Great series. I liked the fact that they made an effort to show legionaries in mail. At Philippi in Season 2 we see legionaries on one side carrying a more oval style shield while others have the later classic semi-cylindrical shield. (Goldsworthy pointed out that while we don't know that the squared shield was carried by Caesar's legions, it is possible it was in use during that period. I opted to stick with the oval scutum myself).

The Osprey Warrior book on the degionary from 58 BC to 69 AD does have a color plate depicting an Antonine legionary serving as a marine who is wearing a light blue tunic and carrying a light blue shield. Good book for more info on this topic, btw.

FoG says that, in theory, a base represents around 250 or so soldiers--which might be a field strength cohort-- or you could say it's a cohort period--in either case you'd be looking at 8-10 bases. Call it 8 and say 8 bases equal a legion. For what that's worth

Cheers,

Dale

Brennos · Post by **Brennos** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:20 am

About this, I'm also really keen on collecting a two legion strong 28 mm caesarian late republican roman army. I'll go for bronze montefortino helmets with blackish horsehair, oval scuta, whitish tunics. That IMHO looks good and seems consitent with the information we have.
Now shield colors : How about white?
I now it's supposed to be red with 'classic yellow shapes and decorations', but I'm wondering about it? How does it look? Does anyone know? I'm really not sure about it just wondering...
Cheers
Brennos

williamob · Post by **williamob** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:52 am

That sounds like a solid plan/ color scheme to me. Think I'm going to go the same way.

Not sure if I've read anythign about white shields. I don't think I have. As far as how it looks, I've seen some "non-roman" white shields out there online and I didn't like the way they looked. Then again, if you look at the shield transfers out there, a lot of them could have some potential for mounting on white.

Will

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:54 pm

Since my two miniature armies are Gallic and Caesarian Roman, I have put a great deal of thought into these very questions. Let me start by saying that there are few definitive answers to be found, so there is a lot of room for individual interpretation.

The most popular helmet used by Roman legionaries during the Late Republic appears to have been the bronze Montefortino type. During Caesar's Gallic Wars, some Gallic Port and Agen-style helmets may have been worn, but the use of iron helmets does not appear to have become relatively commonplace until the reign of Augustus. This web site has a nice summary: http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-006.html and this one a good timeline chart: http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... elmet.html

Helmet crests were indeed made from horsehair. For my own Caesarian Romans, I had considered using a variety of natural colors, but eventually decided on a 'uniform' black for legionaries, and red-dyed crests for centurions and legates. Shield color and designs are anyone's guess, although the famous "eagle wings" motif does appear on a legionary shield depicted in a relief dating to the late first century BC (with apologies for the relatively poor quality): http://www.livius.org/a/battlefields/actium/actium2.jpg

The other notable relief from the period depicts no shield decoration, although this might have originally been added in paint: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... vre_n1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... vre_n2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... vre_n3.jpg

A good summary of the pros and cons for various theories on legionary tunic colors may be found here: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/tcolor.html

Ultimately, I decided to field my Caesarian legions with tunics of undyed wool (off-white), and red shields bearing unique emblems for each legion. Someday I really need to take and post some online images of my boys, when I finally have a decent digital camera. In the meantime, these painted Corvus Belli figs I located on the web look nice: http://zoom13.club.fr/marques/corvusbelli/marius2.jpg

Again, there is very little hard evidence for the colors of legionary tunics, shields or helmet crests during this period, so IMHO the most important thing is finding a 'look' that seems 'correct' to you.

Salvete,
Scott

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:09 pm

Scott,

Thanks for the information and the links. This is very helpful.

Dale

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:12 pm

You are very welcome, Dale. I had forgotten to mention that early Coolus helmets appear to have been used during Caesar's day as well, so your OG figures should be perfectly fine.

In fact, my own legions have a smattering of Coolus helms mixed in with all those Montefortinos, just for a bit of variety.

Salve,
Scott

CrazyHarborc · Post by **CrazyHarborc** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:42 pm

IMHO, whenever major changes occurred in armour, weapons, uniform colours, etc, etc.....it would seem that there was a period of time before the changes would be complete. The cost of the replacement equipment AND availibility of needed quanities of said equipment would have caused a limbo period of seeing both versions in the same legion and or cohort by cohort......Use what you have until the replacement gear arrives and you have it in hand.

Much better than okay hand it over, the replacement gear arrives next week.

Brennos · Post by **Brennos** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:47 am

It was my understanding that white shields would have been used by earlier republican armies... So, when did it change to red?

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:28 pm

Well, we really don't know what color(s) legionary shields may have been during the Roman Republic. The notion that they were white appears to stem from speculation coupled with a modern desire to differentiate them from imperial shields, rather than solid historical or archaeological evidence. Of course, there is nothing wrong with painting them white if that looks best to you, but there is no more actual evidence for it than for red, yellow, blue, green, black, or brown.

This modeler's guide provides a good summary of the evidence that does exist: http://reviews.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Roma ... 0002530205

Salve,
Scott

Brennos · Post by **Brennos** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:57 pm

thanks a lot

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:24 pm

That Mannheim helmet looks for all the world like the steel pot worn by US GI's in WW2.

Which, I suppose, just goes to illustrate the old adage that "form follows function". Not surprising, really. After all, until the decadence of the late imperial period, the Romans were supremely pragmatic about most things, and martial affairs most of all.

The other ironically amusing thing I noted was that none of the helmets shown on that site really look much like the "Hollywood Roman" helmets that Otto Preminger and Cecil B DeMille were so fond of

And for that matter, "Gladiator" was just as far off...

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:09 pm

possum wrote:
After all, until the decadence of the late imperial period, the Romans were supremely pragmatic about most things, and martial affairs most of all.

Time to move on from Gibbon

- if anything the late imperials were more pragmatic than the early ones.

Rise of Rome legionaries

Rise of Rome legionaries

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Oh, the more it changes, the more it stays the same...

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