The Madcam Garage Open

[hercimurthemediocre]

No results to post, we agreed to not bother with scores.

Two new players were welcomed into the fold : Scott "Madcam" Jeske and Mike "Phantom Steel" Phanenstiel.

Armies Played (in no particular order other than memory)
Marc Crotteau - Crown of Aragon
Jeff Fletcher- (Atilla the) Western Hunnic
Doug Anderson - Ilkhanid
Mike Phanenstiel - Ilkhanid
Scott Jeske - Foederate Roman
Andy Swingle - Medieval German

Worthy of note: All armies achieved at least one win, including Mike's Ilkhanids winning 2 (?) in his first outing. I believe he would have won on points had we kept score.

Also, Scott performed well (IMO), especially in my game against him inflicting four attrition points to my none before time ran out. Scott voiced a fair amount of dissatisfaction, mainly regarding the potency of knights. I must say that I agree with his assessment that the F.Romans can fair well in period but not so much in an open format.

In any event, thanks go to Scott for being a gracious host.

[madcam2us]

To expand on Jeff's thread...

I got to play 4 games.

In the first I played Jeff and his huns... Basically a nice historical matchup with lots of shooty mounted bow, big groups of impact foot on both sides and some lancers for each. My biggest advantage over him was the MF I was able to bring that took the central woods that divided the table in two. They were the stars of the game as they chased off some LF and dragged some lancers into the woods after surviving the impact phase. Jeff was patient with all my questions. Due to the "even-ness" of lists it was going to be hard for one side to have a significant advantage over the other in list design. Not having to face Knights made life much easier for my BGs. I thought terrain didn't effect mounted enough. I mainly took open and enclosed fields. I didn't necessarily want to have a bunch of woods, but felt being drilled I would be able to manuveur much better than he. Instead, both sides LH & Cav didn't really care as it didn't slow down his advance since most of the fields fell in his deployment area. Neither side advanced with their foot so they didn't play into the fight. We really didn't play too many bounds as I was working my way thru the rules. The POAs after a bit were ok, where I felt the game slowed was determining the amount of "dice per base" gained or lost. I don't think I have that part down still. I ran my shooty cav in 2x2s since I thought I had the advantage over Jeffs b/c I had swordsmen and wanted to close ASAP. because of some e. fields in my deployment, I was able to gain a local 2-1 advantage over Jeffs CV and got the better in the initial shooting phases.

Thoughts on game one: IMO, winning initiative is not a good thing. At least not for a beginner. I thought by doing so I would have been able to dictate pace and space. Instead, Jeff was able to burn thru the fields negating my plan on pinning him amongst them. I didn't have the DBx moments yet as no real tactics on my part were planned or implemented. Jeff, if he had them, was more occupied with my questions and his explainations than developing any real plan.

Game 2
Playing a seasoned vet and a high med German list was up next. I was interested to see how the "patsies" would play out of period. Again, "winning" initiative I got to place terrain and opted for more open/enclosed fields. Remembering the Germans from DBx could have a significant amount of MF, I planned not to junk up the board. I only had 1 BG of MF so didn't want to give any advantage to him. Probably about the only thing I did correct. The game hinged on a wood that again was in the center sector dividing the board in two. I had my MF opposite it with the thinking I would be able use it the same way I did in my first game. I deployed a wide group of LH-bow on the left of the wood, the MF with lancer cav in the center and the rest of the board contained the rest of my BGs. Andy had one group of knights opposite the LH on my left (of the woods) HF next completed by 2-3BGs of knights + LH on the end. Basically my error was thinking multiple lines were good with the Cav up front with the supporting cast(2xHF BGs and support casts) behind. I still was thinking I would push the cav up to "pin" the opponent. ON my right flank I had a BG of 4 Bow. My mistake was thinking too much DBM. Andy pushed his knights forward with his lh seeking out the bow. The isolated knights went full bore around the woods right past my LH - giving me their flank. At this point I asked Andy (whom I played in DBx) why he would totally ignore my LH that easily could turn the knights flank. I was still 2-3 turns away with any of my own lancers from his front but under normal playing, there would be no way someone would just ignore them. Well after the combat I wondered no more. IMO, not having a "factor" for being charged in the flank is wrong. I understand one does if they lose the impact but being able to fight with full factors on the turn they are impact doesn't realistically make a player attempt to protect them. Granted, if it was something more substantial than LH, the combat would be more even, but being able to fight fully seems wrong to me. Next up was the lancers I threw at the knights. They fared no better especially after the impact where hitting on 5s vs his 4s mathmatically it was only a matter of time. I might have been able to feed more into this combat, but with his hot dice and mine poor, the lancers quickly broke after the melee phase of the first contact round. Superior H. Armored knights with lance+sword is a killer combination. My list doesn't have an answer to them. At least not with my (un)skill level. At this point, I was more than a bit demoralized as I really didn't want to play knights to kill knights. With a few days of reflection, I'm not sure I'm 100% on this, but still have troubles with their abilities.

Thoughts: Aside from the above, javelin armed LH tore thru my BG of bow. I had a problem with this. 4 dice vs 4 dice (he was able to bring 2 BGs vs my one) of Javelin LH vs bow should not see the factors be tilted towards the mounted (unprotected bow vs mounted was a -). Needing 5s to his 4s it was obvious where this was going. Granted, his dice were hot and he hit 7 times in two bounds of shooting and I failed my death roll 2x but in DBx one could secure a flank with some reg bow (o) at least for a time and LH(O) would pause to attack them frontally at a 3(o) v 2. Yes, the BG should have been in the rear giving support, and it was a mistake on my part. I could have placed them there as they were placed after andy had completed his deployment on that flank. but all they were facing was LH. I will know better next time. Evading didn't work out as I envisioned. Mainly due to my deployment of the army behind them.

I again wasn't able to use the evade of the CV fully. One b/c he got to move first and he jump as far forward as possible and 2 I had multiple lines behind the CV. when I tried to evade or broke, my junked up lines prevented me from doing so. There really isn't time to reposition your forces in this game.. If you don't have your lines down from the beginning it is nigh impossible for them to do so during the game.


More later.

Madcam.

[carlos]

Seems you got a couple of things wrong there.

IMO, not having a "factor" for being charged in the flank is wrong.

BGs charged in the flank fight at -- in the impact phase and go down a cohesion level if they were charged by anything except skirmishers (unless they are skirmishers too). So overall, the LH would have X dice at 3+ and the knights X*2 dice at 5+.

Aside from the above, javelin armed LH tore thru my BG of bow. I had a problem with this. 4 dice vs 4 dice (he was able to bring 2 BGs vs my one) of Javelin LH vs bow should not see the factors be tilted towards the mounted (unprotected bow vs mounted was a -). Needing 5s to his 4s it was obvious where this was going.

Lesson learned, unprotected mass of close-together foot makes for a good target to shooting. LH are a far more spread out formation and so less vulnerable. On the defence of the rules, he had numerical superiority and brought it bear on you. Also, unprotected foot w/ bow is not Bw(O) but rather Bw(I) from DBM.

[rbodleyscott]

IMO, not having a "factor" for being charged in the flank is wrong. I understand one does if they lose the impact but being able to fight with full factors on the turn they are impact doesn't realistically make a player attempt to protect them.

They don't fight on full factors when charged in the flank. They automatically fight at -- with the flank chargers fighting on ++.

Nevertheless, charging knights in the flank with LH would be a very bad idea as the dice reduction cancels out your advantage and in the melee you are toast.

[madcam2us]

Yes, -- as RBS said, but not really a hinderance as the subsequent melee means the LH are toast as the knights can fill in and still fight much better...

So RBS, was it intentional that LH can't do much to knights? Lose too many of them to the swarm

Games 3 & 4 will come later but I was able to play another game today and was able to remove my DBM thinking even further than games 1-4. Granted it was me teaching a complete newbie but one who is familiar with DBx and was always much better than me at sticking to a game plan..

I find the more one plans his attack and deployment, the better they will do....


This is good to know, but probably worse for the game... It removes a gamey aspect that many (at least me) enjoyed of being able (pip willing) to move the axis of attack to take advantage of a preceived weakness in the opponents troops/deployment/line. Kinda makes it a game of better deployment is the winner in all except the timed games...

Madcam.

M

[Andy1972]

Game 2
Playing a seasoned vet and a high med German list was up next. I was interested to see how the "patsies" would play out of period. Again, "winning" initiative I got to place terrain and opted for more open/enclosed fields. Remembering the Germans from DBx could have a significant amount of MF, I planned not to junk up the board. I only had 1 BG of MF so didn't want to give any advantage to him. Probably about the only thing I did correct. The game hinged on a wood that again was in the center sector dividing the board in two. I had my MF opposite it with the thinking I would be able use it the same way I did in my first game. I deployed a wide group of LH-bow on the left of the wood, the MF with lancer cav in the center and the rest of the board contained the rest of my BGs. Andy had one group of knights opposite the LH on my left (of the woods) HF next completed by 2-3BGs of knights + LH on the end. Basically my error was thinking multiple lines were good with the Cav up front with the supporting cast(2xHF BGs and support casts) behind. I still was thinking I would push the cav up to "pin" the opponent. ON my right flank I had a BG of 4 Bow. My mistake was thinking too much DBM. Andy pushed his knights forward with his lh seeking out the bow. The isolated knights went full bore around the woods right past my LH - giving me their flank. At this point I asked Andy (whom I played in DBx) why he would totally ignore my LH that easily could turn the knights flank. I was still 2-3 turns away with any of my own lancers from his front but under normal playing, there would be no way someone would just ignore them. Well after the combat I wondered no more. IMO, not having a "factor" for being charged in the flank is wrong. I understand one does if they lose the impact but being able to fight with full factors on the turn they are impact doesn't realistically make a player attempt to protect them. Granted, if it was something more substantial than LH, the combat would be more even, but being able to fight fully seems wrong to me. Next up was the lancers I threw at the knights. They fared no better especially after the impact where hitting on 5s vs his 4s mathmatically it was only a matter of time. I might have been able to feed more into this combat, but with his hot dice and mine poor, the lancers quickly broke after the melee phase of the first contact round. Superior H. Armored knights with lance+sword is a killer combination. My list doesn't have an answer to them. At least not with my (un)skill level. At this point, I was more than a bit demoralized as I really didn't want to play knights to kill knights. With a few days of reflection, I'm not sure I'm 100% on this, but still have troubles with their abilities.

Thoughts: Aside from the above, javelin armed LH tore thru my BG of bow. I had a problem with this. 4 dice vs 4 dice (he was able to bring 2 BGs vs my one) of Javelin LH vs bow should not see the factors be tilted towards the mounted (unprotected bow vs mounted was a -). Needing 5s to his 4s it was obvious where this was going. Granted, his dice were hot and he hit 7 times in two bounds of shooting and I failed my death roll 2x but in DBx one could secure a flank with some reg bow (o) at least for a time and LH(O) would pause to attack them frontally at a 3(o) v 2. Yes, the BG should have been in the rear giving support, and it was a mistake on my part. I could have placed them there as they were placed after andy had completed his deployment on that flank. but all they were facing was LH. I will know better next time. Evading didn't work out as I envisioned. Mainly due to my deployment of the army behind them.

I again wasn't able to use the evade of the CV fully. One b/c he got to move first and he jump as far forward as possible and 2 I had multiple lines behind the CV. when I tried to evade or broke, my junked up lines prevented me from doing so. There really isn't time to reposition your forces in this game.. If you don't have your lines down from the beginning it is nigh impossible for them to do so during the game.


More later.

Madcam.[/quote] .. Seasoned vet is a bit much. I felt bad for not being to explain better.. Im not a very good teacher. As we explained later, you could have them charge in the flank after passing a test. Then you would get fighting in 2 directions. Skirmishers don't cause a drop in morale while charging in the flank. Skirmishers by themselves agaisnt formed troops.. No use. From what ive been reading in historical battles.. Not too many that the commander had time to change their inital deployment. Thanks Madcam for the food and the fun! Just hope next time it isn't quite as warm. (beer and food and heat.. = i cant concentrate)

[hammy]

Thoughts: Aside from the above, javelin armed LH tore thru my BG of bow. I had a problem with this. 4 dice vs 4 dice (he was able to bring 2 BGs vs my one) of Javelin LH vs bow should not see the factors be tilted towards the mounted (unprotected bow vs mounted was a -). Needing 5s to his 4s it was obvious where this was going. Granted, his dice were hot and he hit 7 times in two bounds of shooting and I failed my death roll 2x but in DBx one could secure a flank with some reg bow (o) at least for a time and LH(O) would pause to attack them frontally at a 3(o) v 2.

Leaving troops (especially small BGs) in possitions where they can be ganged up on by enemy shooting is a recipie for dissaster. By the sound of it you were unlucky with death rolls but the end result is what I would expect.

One thing that confuses me is the "Needing 5s to his 4s" comment. If you are shooting at LH then you hit on 4s and he would hit protected foot on 4s and unprotected on 3s. It could be this you are remembering.

MF bow are not bad against LH but you can't let them get picked on.

[hammy]

Yes, -- as RBS said, but not really a hinderance as the subsequent melee means the LH are toast as the knights can fill in and still fight much better...

So RBS, was it intentional that LH can't do much to knights? Lose too many of them to the swarm

Light horse are skirmishers, they fight by skirmishing. Unlike DBM where everything (well nearly everything) is done base to base in FoG you can shoot.

One BG of LH is unlikely to beat one BG of knights but two BGs of LH should wear the knights down with shooting. If you have 4 shooting dice per turn against a BG of 4 knights you will have a 40% chance of forcing a test each shooting phase. That boils down to a 10-15% chance per shot of disrupting the knights. if you can fragment the knights then your light horse stand a reasonable chance in close combat as they won't be on half dice and the knights will. Even so a bloke on a horse wearing loads of armour and waving a big sword is somewhat better in melee than one on a pony with a scimitar.

You really need to unlearn a lot of DBM wisdom and forget the strange DBM abstractions.

[nikgaukroger]

So RBS, was it intentional that LH can't do much to knights? Lose too many of them to the swarm

I understand that it was.

The difference in LH effect between DBM and FoG is massive and is possibly one of the biggest things an ex-DBMer has to get over - especially DBMers who liked to use LH

I have to admit that after the SoA Battle Day where we did Doryleaum I came to the conclusion that the DBM Kn:LH interaction was rather broken At that battle the crusader milites stoof for hours against larger numbers of skirmishing Turcoman - I think this works better under FoG

[rbodleyscott]

So RBS, was it intentional that LH can't do much to knights? Lose too many of them to the swarm

I understand that it was.

The difference in LH effect between DBM and FoG is massive and is possibly one of the biggest things an ex-DBMer has to get over - especially DBMers who liked to use LH

Which is not to say that LH are ineffective, as Nik will no doubt testify having recently won two FOG tournaments with a Seljuk Turk army with lots of LH.

As Hammy says, there is a paradigm shift in FOG. Skirmishers achieve their effects by shooting, not by wading in with their trusty fruit knives.

It took us years to get people to accept the counter-intuitive abstractions of DBM re LH and LF (quite a few never did, and dropped out of DBM as a result) - now it seems many people have difficulty unlearning them for FOG.

We felt in developing FOG that reintroducing a less abstract representation of the skirmishing tactics of distant shooting and evading enemy charges would give more of the flavour of those tactics. We, at least, are happy with the result.

[nikgaukroger]

It took us years to get people to accept the counter-intuitive abstractions of DBM re LH and LF (quite a few never did, and dropped out of DBM as a result) - now it seems many people have difficulty unlearning them for FOG.

I found the quickest way was to charge a BG of Bedouin LH into the flank of some Cv. One good kicking later I'd learnt the difference

[rbodleyscott]

It took us years to get people to accept the counter-intuitive abstractions of DBM re LH and LF (quite a few never did, and dropped out of DBM as a result) - now it seems many people have difficulty unlearning them for FOG.

I found the quickest way was to charge a BG of Bedouin LH into the flank of some Cv. One good kicking later I'd learnt the difference

I wasn't so much referring to Pavlovian conditioning. More a question of accepting the paradigm shift that troops in contact really are exchanging hand-strokes in FoG - unlike in DBM where they may be shooting at each other at close range. The effect of being "charged in the flank" by LH or LF in DBM usually represents a close range barrage of missiles into the flank, not the devastating effect of a well-handled fruit knife. In FOG this effect must be achieved by shooting and not by close combat. A knights BG surrounded (at an appropriate distance) by enemy LH will have a finite life span.

[babyshark]

The difference in LH effect between DBM and FoG is massive and is possibly one of the biggest things an ex-DBMer has to get over - especially DBMers who liked to use LH

It certainly took me a while, and I still find myself falling back into old habits when I am not concentrating. Probably because I have to go months between games sometimes. I was (still am) a LH theorist in DBM.

Marc

[mikepfanenstiel]

I was the last one to accept for the garage open. I have the rule book; all 5 of the army books and several armies, but had not tried the rules since most of my armies are Chinese or eastern. I looked through the lists and picked Ilkahnid Mongol. I read the rules once. My first list was Inspired CIC, 2 troop commanders, 5 units of 6 LC, bow, one unit of 6 Best Mongol Cav., unit of Kurdish lancers, one unit of knights and a unit of (4)LI Kurdish archers. 9BG and +4 initiative. My plan was to keep the battlefield as open as possible, send the light horse up to skirmish, bring up the lancers and Mongol best cav when the enemy had been softened up.

I played Marc with his medieval army of Aragon and French Ally, 12 BG, 0 Initiative. He had three units of knights, 2 units of LH with jls, 1 unit of LI with JLS and unit of LI with B, the rest was foot. I picked the required OF and two open. He had OF, several enclosed fields and a steep hill. The steep hill ended up in the middles of my right side edge and enclosed field in my middle on the back edge. I diced 6’s for the rest of his terrain choices. I spread LH across my front, the two lancers in back and the LI in ambush on the steep hill. His French were on my right, two units of (4) LH, jls to press forward beside the steep hill and his two units of LI to go over the steep hill. His first move was to move everything forward, knights ended up in front and his skirmishers advanced on my right. I moved two LH against his French knights. I showed my LI on the hill and moved LH to shoot his LH. I dropped one unit of LH a level. His turn, he advanced the French knights into shooting range of my LH, with foot behind his French knights for rear support, pulled his LH back to bolster them on his left and put a unit of knights in their place. His foot formed a reserve behind his knights. The LI on the left shot my LI down a level. My LH shot his French Knights, he dropped a level and one killed. My turn, I pulled the LI back, and moved my Mongol Cav with bow to shoot one of knights, and LH to shoot one of his LI. I shot his French knights down a for a 2nd level, and his turn, I shot them down a third level he routed and never rallied. One of my LH went and captured the camp, the other was dueling with his MI, XB. I shot one of his units of knights down a level and a stand and one of his LI down a level on the left. His knights charge some of my LH on the left who evaded. My turn, my knights charge one unit of his knights, both sides committed Generals, I dropped him a level and a stand. My bow shot the other unit of knights down a 2nd level and 2nd stand. In Melee, he dropped my knights down a level and a stand. In his turn, my knights went down a 2nd stand, and on my next turn, I won the melee, he dropped level and then I killed his general, his unit routed from that, I shot the 3rd stand from the other unit of knights. At this point, I had routed his three units of knights and taken his camp for no losses on my part. His next turn, one of my LH rolled low while in the enclosed field and he rolled high and caught them and fragmented my unit of LI with shooting. I had fragmented his LI with shooting and shot one stands off of his LH. My turn, I shot the 2nd stand, so it routed from attrition. On his turn, he charged his MI XB against my LH, b that was down a level. He rolled poorly and dropped a level. In melee, he rolled poorly again and rolled double one’s for morale test and routed. Game was over. He had earned 3 attrition points against my 9, and I had earned 13 against his 12.

Second game was a civil war against another Mongol played by Doug. He had used 4 stand average cav instead of the lots of LH and had Armenian allies for 12 BG and 0 initiative, I believe. We ended with a fairly open battlefield and I removed one of his terrain choices with a 6.
He deployed heavy on his right with 8 BG and a 4 stand Cav unit with two 4 stand LH and a LI unit on his left three feet of board. I had three units of LH and the best Mongol cav against that side of the board. On my left, there was some maneuvering and shooting, finally, my knights led by the IC went in It took several rounds of combat, but he killed the IC and attritioned the knights, but it held up a large portion of his army. I shot his LI, one LC and his cav unit to death and took his camp. He had 4 other units fragmented by shooting. My larger sized unit proved to be helpful.
I had earned 12 attrition points of 12 to his 2 of my 9.

My third game was against Andy with Medieval German. It was to be a short game, because I had to leave. He had 12 BG’s and a IC. He used his IC well to reduce the effectiveness of my shooting. His knights took out the best mongol cav and Kurdish lancers. My knights took out a spear unit.and I shot MI XB unit to rout through attrition and shot a HI unit to rout through attrition. When we stopped, I had earned 6 of 12 attrition points and he had 4 of my 9.

[madcam2us]

Nice report Mike,

Care to go into any of the mechanics, issues or thought overall?

Madcam.

[Andy1972]

omg.. The fight against Mike was annoying! He had like 10-14 shooty dice against a single unit at a time sometimes! He was avg 5-8 hits per turn.. I messed up and put the crossbow out to shoot him.. Bad mistake. Thank God for my IC.. he really kept things from falling apart. I do see a problem with unfinished games with match ups like this.. My army had 2 lfx4 hand gunners; 2 lhx4; 1 MFx8 Off spear; 1 MFx6 xbow; 1 HFx8 def spear, ha; 1 hfx8 heavy weapon, ha; 2 BG HFx8 def spear, prot; 2 Knx4 Ha, sup, lance, swd. I keep my 2 armored HF at the front with rear support from the other HF.. One of the other HF is ready to extend my line if needs be, the crossbow is ready to take some terrain feature along with the off spear.. The knights I try to place at his weakest point.. Or to counter act the oppents shock troops. I keep my IC centeraly located and never commit him to combat.. Thats what my 2 TC are for.. and they tend to hand out on the wings.. Just depends on whats going on.. If i keep my knights together, I keep a TC with them to help them along. Anyway.. We only played like 2-2.5 hours.. He probably would have beaten me if we went another hour or so. I had another spear ready to rout and my baggage would have been open.. I might have been able to get his baggage as well.. but alas we ran out of time. I had a great time!

[corbon]

My first list was Inspired CIC, 2 troop commanders, 5 units of 6 LC, bow, one unit of 6 Best Mongol Cav., unit of Kurdish lancers, one unit of knights and a unit of (4)LI Kurdish archers. 9BG and +4 initiative.

omg.. The fight against Mike was annoying! He had like 10-14 shooty dice against a single unit at a time sometimes!

Is it just me or is that practically his entire army shooting at a single unit?

Don't LC/LF shoot at 1 dice per 2 bases? And second (shooting) rank of Cv at 1 dice per 2 bases? Which gives a max of 21 dice shooting with the entire army (34/2 LC-LI + 3+1 Cv), assuming the Cv are in two ranks. Ok, its only half the army... but still...

[hammy]

My first list was Inspired CIC, 2 troop commanders, 5 units of 6 LC, bow, one unit of 6 Best Mongol Cav., unit of Kurdish lancers, one unit of knights and a unit of (4)LI Kurdish archers. 9BG and +4 initiative.

omg.. The fight against Mike was annoying! He had like 10-14 shooty dice against a single unit at a time sometimes!

Is it just me or is that practically his entire army shooting at a single unit?

Don't LC/LF shoot at 1 dice per 2 bases? And second (shooting) rank of Cv at 1 dice per 2 bases? Which gives a max of 21 dice shooting with the entire army (34/2 LC-LI + 3+1 Cv), assuming the Cv are in two ranks. Ok, its only half the army... but still...

10 - 14 shooting dice is a LOT.... It isn't impossible but you really need to be almost surrounded for the numbers to get that bad.

FWIW I believe that Si managed to get 10 hits with javelins on an elephant BG he was fighting with his Numidians (the elephant was effectively surrounded) and the elephants promptly rolled a 1 on their death roll and vapourised when both of them died.

[rbodleyscott]

FWIW I believe that Si managed to get 10 hits with javelins on an elephant BG he was fighting with his Numidians (the elephant was effectively surrounded) and the elephants promptly rolled a 1 on their death roll and vapourised when both of them died.

That sounds more like big game hunting than a battle.

[carlos]

FWIW I believe that Si managed to get 10 hits with javelins on an elephant BG he was fighting with his Numidians (the elephant was effectively surrounded) and the elephants promptly rolled a 1 on their death roll and vapourised when both of them died.

They would have vapourised on any dice roll actually. Unless you meant 10 dice, not 10 hits.