Campaign: Raising new Army

[GShock112]

I was under the impression I could muster new troops in any of my owned provinces and that I could possibly add more troops to an already existing army but maybe I was wrong.

Provinces with a standing army can only SPLIT the existing army.
Provinces without an army can create a new one but this army naturally starts with an Onjin and crack troops... the most expensive ones so I can't take more bulk troops because they drain the coffer out.
When I merge this newly created army into the existing one I suppose the crack troops will be lost, right?

What am I supposed to do to reinforce an existing army then?

[rbodleyscott]

When I merge this newly created army into the existing one I suppose the crack troops will be lost, right?

No.

Data on each individual unit is stored separately, so the same units will continue exist in exactly the same form when armies are merged or split. (But only 1 Honjin will actually be used if there is a battle).

What am I supposed to do to reinforce an existing army then?

Create a new army, or move in an army from another province, and then merge it with the existing army.

[rbodleyscott]

I was under the impression I could muster new troops in any of my owned provinces and that I could possibly add more troops to an already existing army but maybe I was wrong.

Provinces with a standing army can only SPLIT the existing army.

You can raise an army in any province that your side both currently owns and is deemed to have originally owned, even if there is already a friendly army there. (But not if there is an enemy army there).

The reason why you could not do so in this case, could be:
a) the manpower limit might have been reached for that province for the year, or
b) the province is not an originally owned province.

Note:

Usually "originally owned" means that your side held it at the start of the campaign. However, special rules apply in the Imjin War and Byeongja Horan campaigns.

In the Imjin War campaign, the Japanese are able to raise troops in any of their currently held provinces on the first turn only (to represent the armies of invasion), but the Koreans are the original owners of all of the provinces except Nagoya. So after the first turn the Japanese can only raise troops in Nagoya, and the Koreans can raise troops in any Korean province they currently own.

In the Byeongja Horan campaigns, the Qing are able to raise troops in any of their currently held provinces on the first turn only (to represent the armies of invasion), but the Koreans are the original owner of all of the provinces except Liaoning and Manchuria. So after the first turn the Qing can only raise troops in Liaoning or Manchuria, and the Koreans can raise troops in any Korean province they currently own.

[GShock112]

So the system does not allow me to, say, muster a Yari Ashigaru unit in a province and move it next month to another province to merge with an army... individual units can't exist outside of the army structure. Right?

The good side is I was worried the top 6 crack troops were being lost when 2 armies merged... if you say they don't I can immediately crush the Takeda.

[rbodleyscott]

So the system does not allow me to, say, muster a Yari Ashigaru unit in a province and move it next month to another province to merge with an army... individual units can't exist outside of the army structure. Right?

They can exist on their own (by splitting from an existing army), but they can't be raised on their own.

The idea is that each time you raise a force it has to include the core types in the army list. Otherwise there would be nothing to stop you raising an army entirely consisting of one rare type, by raising one unit at a time.

[GShock112]

What I still don't understand is where the manpower/funds come from when I split an army.
When splitting a Honjin is created and the top troops are spawned... this creates a new army just like you were creating it from scratch. I suppose you have to pay for those crack troops and new Honjin but you can actually split armies anytime you like, even when you have no money to pay these newly spawned troops. It's very confusing. Are the numbers of the existing units split in half for the newly created unit in the new army? I don't think so... it looks like you can move an entire unit from one side (existing army) to the other (new army)...

When you merge armies instead, not only the extra Honjin disappears but also those crack troops... I don't think I have understood how it works.... In fact I tried to leave control to the player for armies (not automatic) and I still can't get it right.

[rbodleyscott]

(Sorry, I accidentally edited your post instead of quoting it. I have restored it as best as I can).

What I still don't understand is where the manpower/funds come from when I split an army. When splitting a Honjin is created and the top troops are spawned... this creates a new army just like you were creating it from scratch. I suppose you have to pay for those crack troops and new Honjin but you can actually split armies anytime you like, even when you have no money to pay these newly spawned troops. It's very confusing.

When you split an army it is not like creating an army from scratch. There are no newly spawned units, crack or otherwise, so nothing needs to be paid for. The units you move to the right hand window split off to become a separate force. Nothing else changes.

Are the numbers of the existing units split in half for the newly created unit in the new army? I don't think so... it looks like you can move an entire unit from one side (existing army) to the other (new army)...

There are no newly created units. Units are not split in half.

When you merge armies instead, not only the extra Honjin disappears but also those crack troops... I don't think I have understood how it works.... In fact I tried to leave control to the player for armies (not automatic) and I still can't get it right.

When you merge armies the units combine to form one army. No units are created or lost, unless some of them are severely understrength, in which case some may be disbanded to reinforce units of exactly the same type. The extra Honjins are not lost, but only one will be deployed if there is a battle.

[GShock112]

What confuses me is that the newly created armies have all the top (I think the top 6) unit types taken with #1 as if they were default, along with the Honjin and I can't actually buy new troops for the existing armies (which are in newly conquered provinces of course, that's why).

When the army is split in 2, I generally take random units from one side and put them to the other... and I still see the top 6 always taken. Maybe it's a coincidence. I need to practice more with the Campaign mode... practice makes perfect, in fact I just won Tenka Fubu winning 3 battles in a row.

I noticed that I can hardly inflict more than 55% casualties on the enemy. The system has its logic and its good but I'm wondering if the routing % is really being calculated for ALL the units that will participate in battle, which includes those that haven't arrived yet on the battlefield. I've had the impression that I would lose the battle if the 3rd wave of the enemy arrived on me but was always able to meet the routing requirement before it happened. This kind of problem negates the advantages of big numbers. If I can always rout the enemy before their reinforcements can make the difference...

Are you sure the A/B requirements are factoring all the units of one side and not just those who are on the battlefield at the end of the round? Also... routing units could rally... shouldn't they count in the A/B requirements only when dispersed or routed off the field?

Any plans to add the Gempei War to the Campaign scenarios?

[rbodleyscott]

What confuses me is that the newly created armies have all the top (I think the top 6) unit types taken with #1 as if they were default

They are default (compulsory). How many default units there are varies with the particular army list and the points available. The purpose of this is so that armies bear some resemblance to their historical prototype. Otherwise you could (for example) make all your armies entirely consist of mounted teppo samurai, by raising one unit at a time then combining them. There would be no point in having historical researched army lists if they could be bipassed like that.

When the army is split in 2, I generally take random units from one side and put them to the other... and I still see the top 6 always taken.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

The units in the two armies resulting from a split consist (in total) of exactly the same units that were in the army before it split.

The original army will have the units in it that you selected to stay. The split off army will have the units you selected to split off. You can split off any units you like, the system does not force you to keep any particular units in the original army.

I noticed that I can hardly inflict more than 55% casualties on the enemy. The system has its logic and its good but I'm wondering if the routing % is really being calculated for ALL the units that will participate in battle, which includes those that haven't arrived yet on the battlefield.

That depends on the scenario. In skirmishes and campaign battles it does take into account units that have not yet arrived. In some of the historical scenarios it doesn't, so the % routed will drop when reinforcements arrive.

I've had the impression that I would lose the battle if the 3rd wave of the enemy arrived on me but was always able to meet the routing requirement before it happened. This kind of problem negates the advantages of big numbers. If I can always rout the enemy before their reinforcements can make the difference...

That, of course, is what you should be trying to do.

Also... routing units could rally... shouldn't they count in the A/B requirements only when dispersed or routed off the field?

While they are routing they are routing. If they rally they are deducted from the routed %.

Any plans to add the Gempei War to the Campaign scenarios?

It has been discussed.

[GShock112]

What confuses me is that the newly created armies have all the top (I think the top 6) unit types taken with #1 as if they were default

They are default (compulsory). How many default units there are varies with the particular army list and the points available. The purpose of this is so that armies bear some resemblance to their historical prototype. Otherwise you could (for example) make all your armies entirely consist of mounted teppo samurai, by raising one unit at a time then combining them. There would be no point in having historical researched army lists if they could be bipassed like that.

Very well, I like that and now I understand why it's so.

The units in the two armies resulting from a split consist (in total) of exactly the same units that were in the army before it split.

The original army will have the units in it that you selected to stay. The split off army will have the units you selected to split off. You can split off any units you like, the system does not force you to keep any particular units in the original army.

So the only new unit in the newly created army would be the new Honjin, is this going to be paid for? I don't think so, I can raise a new army immediately even with 0 coins in coffer.
I'm still a bit puzzled: in the Tenko Fuba campaign (which is the only one I'm playing with since I'm in learning mode), the way you put it earlier I can't raise any army in those provinces that don't originally belong to me. That means half the map basically.
Now, I can only raise the first part of the new army (the hatamoto, Honjin, 2 mounted Samurai and a Yumi Samurai IIRC and 1 more unit I can't recall now) but that takes money, right? If this is so there's not enough manouverability/funds to expand an existing army with new units. Best you can do is raise new army and then merge it into the existing one and that also takes into account the fact you can only raise armies in your home provinces.

Considering you're supposed to defend the borders and eventually attack the enemy's territories, a) there's no way to reinforce, b) there's no money to reinforce, c) you lose to attrition in siege and still can't reinforce d) after you capture the province you still can't reinforce (not home province).

In theory the strategic value of the provinces you capture should increase your funds and manpower while deducting it from the enemy's... but the enemy is right in his territory and you can't be reinforced. Are you sure this is the best way to simulate a campaign? Mind in that historical period we're already at over 30.000 vs 30.000 in some instances (Sekigahara more than 60.000 per side). Best I've seen so far is 10.000 vs 11.000 (and I won, in fact now I'm playing at Daymio level and it's a totally different story!) a bit too little for a feudal system, permanently at war.

I understand the historical base of army composition, totally and agree with it but it looks to me the recruitment is too strict with raising entire armies (possibly only in winter after taxes are collected and they can't move in spring) while the rest of the year the whole Clan's domains are sitting idle, not sending new units to the existing armies (but I've seen the refitting button).

Something's not right here and I think the funds are too low to match the numbers of the period, however the idea of the ratio looks fitting... if funds were increased globally for both sides (production of individual provinces) and recruitment of individual units was unlocked (make army call upon new units and make them move in background and, eventually, not arrive) some sort of increased upkeep could be devised so that out of ratio units could cost an increasing % more than they normally do so they are not profitable. Armies should become bigger and bigger, especially the ones of the winning side (more provinces = more manpower and more taxes).

I've had the impression that I would lose the battle if the 3rd wave of the enemy arrived on me but was always able to meet the routing requirement before it happened. This kind of problem negates the advantages of big numbers. If I can always rout the enemy before their reinforcements can make the difference...

That, of course, is what you should be trying to do.

It is what I do but the map is large and battles are mostly in the middle... there's no time for reinforcements to arrive and make a difference in most cases.
Once the Takeda AI spawned 2 teppo units and sent them to the woods in the corner of the map: they didn't even try to get involved. The timing at which they arrive is good... it's just that they're too far away.

[rbodleyscott]

Existing armies are automatically reinforced each winter - i.e. all the units in the army are brought up to full strength. The cost is automatically deducted from your treasury after tax has been collected at the end of the year.

If you want to refit/reinforce the units before then, you can, but only if you have not spent your whole treasury. Likewise you can raise new armies in the middle of the year, but only if you have kept back the funds to do so.

New units come from clan territories, captured provinces don't immediately become clan territories, so you can't recruit from them. Allowing you to do so would be unrealistic.

Any system allowing you to add individual units without the compulsory types would eventually allow you to have historically unrealistic armies by constantly reinforcing them with rare unit types.

[GShock112]

Existing armies are automatically reinforced each winter - i.e. all the units in the army are brought up to full strength. The cost is automatically deducted from your treasury after tax has been collected at the end of the year.

If you want to refit/reinforce the units before then, you can, but only if you have not spent your whole treasury. Likewise you can raise new armies in the middle of the year, but only if you have kept back the funds to do so.

New units come from clan territories, captured provinces don't immediately become clan territories, so you can't recruit from them. Allowing you to do so would be unrealistic.

Any system allowing you to add individual units without the compulsory types would eventually allow you to have historically unrealistic armies by constantly reinforcing them with rare unit types.

It looks like it's really impossible to reinforce the army with new units, that's what I am saying (not replacements, I'm talking of new units to make the army bigger).

What you can do is raise a new army and that takes the first 6 unit types (honjin, Hatamoto, Mtd Yari). Any excess money/manpower can barely afford anything else so there's no room for making an existing army bigger unless you create a new army then go to the other army and merge it inside. That however, allows you to double the compulsory types from 6 in one army and 12 in 2 armies to 12 in one army (minus the Honjin of course).

In theory, it's already unbalanced because the 2 armies would not actually not merge forces, they would fight as 2 different armies coming to battle from different sides and fighting together as allied forces. This is interesting because it would open the Co-Op option: XvsX players in the same battle (where X is a number of players that can take any side and also be played by the AI). I'd say this is too far ahead but beautiful.

If the problem is the ahistorical army composition that can be solved quite easily with a higher price for units that would bring the army out of historical compositions (an increasingly higher price, the more ahistorical and unbalanced, the more the cost for buying and for the upkeep of those units).

For example, it's good to have a new army spawn with the compulsory types but it's not good you can't afford anything else in Tenka Fubu (even if you're winning badly). It feels like you can move, you can barely recruit, you lose units to garrisons but, essentially, all you have control on is the battle. Campaign could be a lot more fun than that.

[jomni]

Tenka Fubu era armies aren't that large as say Sekigahara. Most clans can muster between 10k to 20k. See my historical difficulty level thread. Big battles are actually combined with allies like the Oda and Tokugawa tag team. And they aren't spread out into multiple armies. Of course with some Exceptions like Oda Nobunaga who sent two separate armies at two fronts against Mori and Ikko-Ikki. But he ended up dead as he left himself undefended. General obervation is only one or two armies attacking a specific target(s) during campaign season. In real life, they have to disband during planting and harvesting season.

Sekigahara and Imjin campaign, you will see that armies are much larger. As standing armies are involved and the factions are big alliances that combine the resources of all member clans.

As mentioned earlier, you can enlarge armies by combining a smaller army raised elsewhere. Also mandatory units are first raised. This is what the provinces can naturally muster and we must respect the historical order of battle.
There is a huge penalty in having a very large army as the province can't feed it. So enlarging the armies must be done in moderation.

[GShock112]

I know I understand but... I had hoped I could fight larger battles throughout tenka fubu so as to reflect the increased power of the side who's conquering the provinces.