advices for a korean/chinese beginner

[Newdiv]

Good morning, I am a new player of both SJ and P&S.

I really enjoy my first experiences with both, but I have 2 problems, actually 1 need of advice and 1 disappointment...

1 I was beaten by a slight margin by the AI in.... SJ tutorial 3. I am not really used to lose a tutorial
It seems I have a problem here:
how can I defeat a shock army (japanese) with a missile army (chinese/corean)? If veterans have advices for me, I would gladly hear it.
And it would be also useful for P&S, I started the campaign with the turcs, and I feel that I have more or less the same kind of problem, my troops seem to be weaker in melee than my foe.

2 there's one thing in the game mechanics that I find really questionnable:
most infantry can't charge a horse, that I understand.
But that infantry can't join a melee already under way, creates weird situations: that an infantry, not engaged or threatened by anyone, is not able to support a friendly unit being attacked by cavalry, and watches it being slaughtered under its nose for several turns...
Even if it can't engage the enemy cavalry, it should be able to do something to help it. I don't know, giving a bonus to its ally, or forcing the cavalry to fall back from the melee.
Or anything.

But a situation where cavalry butchers with impunity a unit, while being itself surrounded by tons of infantry which can do nothing at all, and that for turns after turns if the melee lasts... It feels really wrong to me.

[rbodleyscott]

2 there's one thing in the game mechanics that I find really questionnable:
most infantry can't charge a horse, that I understand.
But that infantry can't join a melee already under way, creates weird situations: that an infantry, not engaged or threatened by anyone, is not able to support a friendly unit being attacked by cavalry, and watches it being slaughtered under its nose for several turns...
Even if it can't engage the enemy cavalry, it should be able to do something to help it. I don't know, giving a bonus to its ally, or forcing the cavalry to fall back from the melee.
Or anything.

But a situation where cavalry butchers with impunity a unit, while being itself surrounded by tons of infantry which can do nothing at all, and that for turns after turns if the melee lasts... It feels really wrong to me.

The thing is that cavalry melees were not really static things, but we can't really show that on the map. So although the engaged cavalry looks like a tempting target in the game, in reality the cavalry would not necessarily hang around long enough for infantry to charge them. Also, non-warrior infantry units had their tactical doctrines, which did not include charging cavalry.

[rbodleyscott]

1 I was beaten by a slight margin by the AI in.... SJ tutorial 3. I am not really used to lose a tutorial
It seems I have a problem here:
how can I defeat a shock army (japanese) with a missile army (chinese/corean)? If veterans have advices for me, I would gladly hear it.
And it would be also useful for P&S, I started the campaign with the turcs, and I feel that I have more or less the same kind of problem, my troops seem to be weaker in melee than my foe.

Tutorial 3 is relatively finely balanced between the close combat power of the Japanese and the shooting power of the Ming. If it was made easier, the lesson it is trying to teach would not be conveyed. So there is no shame in losing it.

The key is to avoid close combat as long as possible, and concentrate shooting on the leading enemy units so as to hopefully disrupt, fragment or rout them before contact. Try to concentrate shooting on individual enemy units as much as possible, rather than firing one unit against each enemy unit. A unit cannot drop two cohesion levels from shooting in the same turn, however, so once an enemy unit drops cohesion, move on to the next. Make sure you turn your units if they do not have full arc of fire. Do not charge the enemy unless they are already Fragmented, and even then it may be better to continue shooting at them so as to avoid pursuing into danger.

Against the Japanese, it also helps to reduce the size of the infantry force heading towards your infantry by drawing some of them off to face your cavalry coming round their flanks.

In the case of the Ottoman campaign, the Ottoman cavalry have Swordsmen capability and are weaker in melee if the Austrian/Polish cavalry (who have Melee Pistol capability) are Steady, but stronger in melee if the Austrians/Polish are Disrupted or Disordered, even if the Ottomans are Disordered too. Fighting them in rough terrain can therefore be effective as the Austrian/Polish cavalry will automatically be Disordered if they attack your units in rough terrain. The same applies to the Ottoman infantry, they are more effective against western infantry in rough or difficult terrain, and (lacking pikes or bayonets) are liable to be ridden down by western cavalry in open terrain.

[Soar]

The thing is that cavalry melees were not really static things, but we can't really show that on the map. So although the engaged cavalry looks like a tempting target in the game, in reality the cavalry would not necessarily hang around long enough for infantry to charge them. Also, non-warrior infantry units had their tactical doctrines, which did not include charging cavalry.

If what's preventing the infantry from charging the cavalry is that the cavalry is avoiding them, then the infantry should be able to displace them. And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the current rules mean that medium foot are able to do absolutely nothing against an engaged cavalry unit even if they have it totally surrounded from all sides? That doesn't make any sense.

I also take some issue with the rule that prevents units from applying any ranged fire whatsoever against units engaged in melee. Of course there's issues with friendly fire, but in this era, formations have some depth to them, the rear ranks aren't literally locked in hand-to-hand combat with the enemy. I can understand that ranged units behind an engaged friendly unit would have trouble seeing what's going on, but at least at short range, fire from the enemy's flanks or rear would be far more likely to hit enemy targets than friendly (artillery probably excepted).

EDIT: Fixed attribution on quote.

[Newdiv]

Thank you very much rbodleyscott for your interesting answers about both SJ and P&S. I will try to apply your advices.

Still, I agree with Soar above, there's definitely something awkward about infantry unable to do anything about an already engaged cavalry...

And about infantry unable to charge cavalry, there's a second consequence which comes to my mind right now:
if, say, i face a line of infantry (not-able-to-attack-cavalry infantry, I don't speak about warriors of course), I can stop it with a line of cavalry.
I can prevent them to move by being in front of them, and they can do absolutely nothing about it because they can't attack me.
I think that's a problem too, even if a wall of spears can't charge cavalry, the cavalry shouldn't be able to prevent them from advancing.

[blond_knight_new]

I played Tutorial 3 last night on the default difficulty level. Its was a lot of fun trying to hit and run with the cavalry on the Japanese flanks, then blasting the crap out of them from the center.
By the time they finally made it within melee range they were dropping like flies.

[Paul59]

And about infantry unable to charge cavalry, there's a second consequence which comes to my mind right now:
if, say, i face a line of infantry (not-able-to-attack-cavalry infantry, I don't speak about warriors of course), I can stop it with a line of cavalry.
I can prevent them to move by being in front of them, and they can do absolutely nothing about it because they can't attack me.
I think that's a problem too, even if a wall of spears can't charge cavalry, the cavalry shouldn't be able to prevent them from advancing.

The infantry cannot charge non-light cavalry because they are at least partly armed with missile weapons. So they can still shoot the cavalry. That is not nothing. I have yet to come across a scenario where I could afford to park my cavalry in front of the enemy infantry and be shot to pieces. I think there are more than enough infantry units in the game that can already charge cavalry (warriors, non-missile infantry, infantry charging light cavalry etc), any more could lead to some strange situations.

Just my opinion.

[kongxinga]

I also lost tutorial 3 on my first try, it was quite a shock since Ming was the army I was looking forward to playing as the most.

Ottomans coincidentally were also my favourite army list in Pike and shot.

The most important thing to remember is .

1. DO NOT MOVE YOUR TROOPS. If your troops can shoot with full effect, Leave them as they are. If you move even a bit, they shoot much worse and the effect continued in the enemy turn. You should go from doing 6 kills a salvo to up to 50! If you shoot again in enemy turn that is another 50! This is huge. After a Salvo of 50 if they did not drop to disordered, hit them with artillery for the -1 to cohesion tests to see if that works.

2. Concentrate your fire. The more ranged kills, the more likely you are to cause a cohesion drop. Once the Japanese are disordered, your missile infantry can face them on equal or better terms.

3. Remember, your spears don't seem to do anything against infantry. I would say prioritize close infantry for shooting first. In contrast to the awesome fencing abilities of Janissaries, Chinese infantry are only better at impact versus cavalry. It is horrible if ordered infantry reach melee, since you will most likely drop to disorder on impact, then drop to fragmented in the melee (no melee capability). So shoot close infantry first.

4. Your Kuijia Bubing is pretty much nearly useless except for ganking Japanese in forests or rough. These guys are good for flanking engaged inf, or simply charging shooting Qing infantry, but their role here is probably to stand adjacent to cannons to make them protected and free up shooters for better job.

5. Stand in rough versus Japanese. If there is a forest, stand in there too. This neutralizes their spearmen and Spear cavalry. The numbers mean a drop to maybe 20% effectiveness if Japanese spearmen go into the forest. This makes them easy meat for any of your infantry, especially your Kuijia Bubing. Your Kuijia Bubing was meant for this. Otherwise they hang out near the cannons.

[rbodleyscott]

5. Stand in rough versus Japanese. If there is a forest, stand in there too. This neutralizes their spearmen and Spear cavalry. The numbers mean a drop to maybe 20% effectiveness if Japanese spearmen go into the forest. This makes them easy meat for any of your infantry, especially your Kuijia Bubing. Your Kuijia Bubing was meant for this. Otherwise they hang out near the cannons.

Sound advice, except that I would point out that Rough terrain will not help against Japanese spearmen. Difficult terrain will, as you say.

Rough protects from the cavalry though.

[Huskie]

I also lost tutorial 3 on my first try, it was quite a shock since Ming was the army I was looking forward to playing as the most.

Ottomans coincidentally were also my favourite army list in Pike and shot.

I love playing the Ottoman Empire in any game that offers them (and I loved the fact Janissaries were represented well in the game) but I never ever got used to utilizing their light cavalry in Pike and Shot. While in Sengoku Jidai:SotS I primarily play as Joseon Korea forces and became efficient with their light cavalry...

[Newdiv]

Thks kongxinga, you almost wrote me a game manual!

[Stephen1024]

I also suggest learning flank your enemy.

I find that if you can attack from multiple sides against 1 and 1 is flanking that they will rout quickly. Remember shoot them as much possible before charging.

Use rivers hills and any terrain to your advantage. If things not looking good attack their main commander.

Be careful when enemy units are in a defensive position as their defences give them bonus and you negative, use shooters keep them pinned in place if they move out from defensive attack them. But use bulk of your forces flank their defence.

Most are paper, rock and scissors, learn what each units strengths are and weaknesses and exploit your enemies weaknesses and protect yours.

Thats all I can think of to add to Kongxinga help.

I not lost battle to date. I played campaign's after and won. My first campaign had 2 battles won that campaign. First battle I used the hills to give myself an advantage, second battle had river running through it I defended my side river let enemy come to me. Akai sued for peace after second battle ending the campaign. By then my army were mostly vets and willing die, I had destroyed more then 2/3rds of the enemys army, what was left was dishearted. Even if enemy raised new army it would been to small and ineffective to continue. Waiting the computer to attack can take good few turns, thought he wouldn't at one point.

[kongxinga]

Sorry about that mistake on rough! Too used to pike and shot where pike and shot units are either heavy keils or mixed, which do get worse in rough. Japanese spears are medium infantry so are used to rough. I also think I made the mistake of thinking the light spears did nothing against foot. For the purposes of Sengoku, they do protect against infantry, with the big exception being impact foot (korean monks, tribal warriors).

That is very good advice on flanking, but as Ming you have very few cavalry, no light cavalry (at least for Southern ming, and pretty sure for Northern Ming), so keep you cavalry near your infantry. I made that mistake playing Ming as Turks, which meant I sent my cavalry to skirmish their cav. While Cavalry in Sengoku may evade, they do a poor job of it, and if caught it is instant drop to fragmented most of the time (once for rear attack, once more for losing impact battle). As Ottomans sometimes you could bait a charge with light horse then flank charge any chasers with Sipahis. As Ming your cavalry are

1. Too few, and
2. Too weak but (if you buy your troops you can get 1 Superior Swordsman+Bow Cavalry, rest are regulars or raw conscripts)
3. You desperately need them to flank charge any cavalry that charge your infantry. This point is important. If your inf is charged they should be fine in the impact round. They may even win it since they cancel out + Points of Advantages from the Cav (and most inf!) and give themselves +100 POA. However, the next round, melee will happen, and when the cav draw their swords, you have no melee capabilities. This means you have one round to flank charge the cav with your cav to drive them off. Also you can't charge enemy cavalry with most of your melee infantry, so keep your cav alive for that. It really sucks when you think you can flank charge the cav, then you realize Medium infantry, even if melee armed, cannot charge horses. And once the enemy has charged you you cannot shoot him, so lacking cav in place to flank charge is very bad.

[Newdiv]

After a loooong time without playing, I gave it a try again yesterday.
Both the SJ tutorial and my P&S Turks campaign.
I won the tutorial, and my first big battle with Turks. Very satisfying this one, around 30000 men on my side and almost 40000 on the other.
The moment I realized that finally I was about to crush them, I think I had a big dumb smile all over my face.

Thank you all for your sound advices!