Another Stab at an Aztec List.....

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Trench_Raider
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Another Stab at an Aztec List.....

Post by Trench_Raider »

A couple of weeks ago I put forward a quick conversion of the "Warrior" Aztec list as a possible template for using Atecs under FoG. It was not well recieved and given that I was too busy for a couple of days to reply to the thread in which I originally posted it to, I never followed up on it. Well, last night I was digging though boxes in my garage and came across a box of about 120 unpainted 25mm Tin Soldier Aztecs. This resparked my interest, so I have come up with a second draft of my "Warrior" list conversion. I'm posting it in a new thread rather than enaging in thread necromancy. Here it is. How does it look to you? Would you object to facing such an army? Would you run it? other thoughts, comments, flames?

TR

Image

Design notes:
The above list draft is a close conversion of the Warrior Aztec list. http://www.nasamw.org/NWW7x85.pdf Most of the content is as close a conversion
as I have been able to manage. However I have made a few changes to avoid repetition and give each major troop type
it's own "character".

Like the earlier list authors I have decided that regular loose order is the best way to depict the combination of rapid
manuver with close order fighting while retaining the characteristic of being vunerable to mounted troops in the open.
I have chosen to class the majority of Aztec troops as "drilled" due to the fact that while they really did not have a standing army, they did indeed train their young men starting at a very young age in the military arts and had a highly organized military system. Moreoever on the battlefield Atecs are described as being directed by whistles and signals from drums and conch horns. Thus "drilled" seems to fit ythe bill.
I have decided that the Impact Foot/swordsman combination is the best representation of the one handed "macuahuitl" combined
with javelins or atlatl launched darts. This is mainly due to the description by Spanish authors of the initial Aztec charge as being extremly dangerous yet liable to fail if it did not sweep it's target away in the initial rush. The effect of the previously mentioned missle weapons would probably have been minimal when compared to their charge and thus could be considered to be included as part of the impact attack rolls. Likewise the combination of smallish shields and textile armour is enough for me to classify most non-skirmishers as "protected". Finally, the "heavy weapon" option for some of the better Aztec troops represents use of both the two handed version of the macuahuitl and the polearm-like tepoztopilli. I agree with the Warrior list author's conclusion that there is no justification to classify the latter as a spear due to both it's cut and thrust construction and the fact that it was an individual's weapon rather than being employed in massed formations as is implied by the "spear" catagory in FoG.

Due to there not being a provision for detatchments under FoG, I have chosen to leave out the "novice Warrior" troop type and thus assume that Novices make up the rear ranks of Warrior and Knight formations, much in the same manner that Sergeants are assumed to be comprising part of Medieval knight elements. I have chosen to arm the Otomi and other subject warriors with bows for two reasons.
First, this is the most commonly seen option under other game systems for these troops. But this was also done to help keep them
distinct from other troops in the list. Like anything else in this Second draft, I am open to discussion and may change this classification
in future versions.

I have not attempted to model the Meso-American Indian practice of "fighting to capture" in any way. I am of the opinion that most of the captives that were taken by Aztec warriors would have occured in the closing phase of an engagement rather than during the actual fighting. There is little reason to believe that the majority of the fighting was not aimed at killing and defeating an opponent rather than primarilly aimed at procuring sacrifice victims. More importantly in other era/armies in which capture of opponents was a strong motivator (such as was the case with knights in high medieval armies) there is no attempt by FoG to model such behavior. Thus it is considered in this case to be unneeded as well.

On a similar note, I have chosen not to attempt to model the assumed effect of stone weapons on metal armour. Like previous list writers I am willing to give the macuahuitl the benefit of the doubt in assuming that it wold perfom as an effective club even if it's obsidian edges were shattered. For the purist, the slight reduction of effectiness could be considered to be part of the PoA Given for more heavy armour. In any event, FoG attempts to model the p[erformance of armies by the way they interacted with their historical opponents, which for the most part would have been other Meso-American Indian groups.

Thanks for your consideration, and let me know what you think!
eldiablito
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Post by eldiablito »

My biggest concern is the heavy weapons.... When battles against fellow Meso-Americans (ie. Mayans, Tlaxcallans, etc...), the noble "knight" warriors would never encounter an Armored or Heavily Armored foe. IOW, a stand of Jaguar Knights would fight worse than their counterparts with impact foot and swordsman. This is BAD. Likewise, when squaring off against their Spanish foes, I would hesitate giving them a significant advantage over the conquistadors. I would think that the "knights" should fight as either heavy or medium foot as their choice instead.

A different and minor issue I have is the Poor/ undrilled designation for most Aztecs. This was a warrior culture with a mandatory education in arms and war tactics/ formations. To have your basic warriors not know how to set up an ambush (the classic tactic of Aztec warfare) would be disastrous. I would say that all the stands should be Average and perhaps leave the Otomi (mercenaries) as undrilled. Leave the other nations to have poor warriors.
Trench_Raider
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Post by Trench_Raider »

I can certainly see your point in regards to the heavy weapons. You make a very good argument against them, despite the historical use of weapons that would probably be classified as such under FoG. It's certainly something to be considered.
That being said, traditional Aztec lists give options for a certain amount of two handed weapons. Call it tradition if you like...
Oh yes. And given that Spanish sword and buckler men would probably be considered "skilled swordsmen" HW armed Aztecs would not be at an advantage.

As to the "poor" classification for the "peasant" troops I have two points to make.
-The Majority of Aztec melee troops are represnted by the "clan warrior" units. The "peasants" represent the less than effective hordes of skirmishers and missle troops that really did take second place in Central American warfare.
-Keep in mind that I attempted a conversion of the Warrior list here. "Peasants" are classified as "Regular D" class troops in that set, which usually tranlates to FoG as "poor" class troops.

TR
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Post by Redpossum »

Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead by asking this now, but how would you play this? As a Skirmisher Army, or Pin-and-Punch?
SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet »

Are those peasants who are not skilled enough to be effective as skirmisher LF essentially moblike in your view? One mandatory BG of 12 Mob can represent many thousands of its kind - maybe a second one to represent them in tens of thousands - that gets a maximum of 24 bases of Mob filler. Can't have the Jav LSp as MF. MF Slingers? I think that's out on the traditional theory that slingers require a much looser formation.

I believe a direct translation from Warrior's 1HCW, JLS or D, Sh to FoG could be Light Spear Swordsmen or Impact Foot Swordsmen, the operational difference between them being that Impact Foot get an extra + against foot at a cost of 1 additional point.

Getting the right results depends on how you classify the opposition. What are the right results in terms of whether one has the advantage or there is equality in Impact?

Observing "Aztec charge as being extremly dangerous yet liable to fail if it did not sweep it's target away in the initial rush" might suggest Impact Foot that is not Swordsmen, as it is Swordsmen that gives staying power in Melee and its absence just a main chance at Impact.

Discussion of Swordsmen and missiles specifically should probably be resumed in the original Mesoamerican thread.
Rudy_Nelson
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Post by Rudy_Nelson »

Well this is the fourth list that I have reveiwed. All have been similar and different in ways with certain issues of warfare and troop classifications and names.

This has merits as do the others.

I am not sure that I support the Average and Swordsmen classification for subject troops. The use of the term Subjects rather than allies or mercenaries implies different levels of support. Subjects would be less willing and weaker armed than Aztec troops. Why give them better weapons and morale than native Aztecs.

However if these are the Tlaxacans mercenaries, the bow works.

I like the first Warrior Priest option not the second and not both. The same for the military orders. The term heavy weapon seems to imply a two-handed weapon. The Aztec clubs were mainly one hand. And even if a few were mixed in bases for a battle group, i do not see them being enoiugh to warrant a HW rating.
eldiablito
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Post by eldiablito »

Trench_Raider wrote: As to the "poor" classification for the "peasant" troops I have two points to make.
-The Majority of Aztec melee troops are represnted by the "clan warrior" units. The "peasants" represent the less than effective hordes of skirmishers and missle troops that really did take second place in Central American warfare.
-Keep in mind that I attempted a conversion of the Warrior list here. "Peasants" are classified as "Regular D" class troops in that set, which usually tranlates to FoG as "poor" class troops.
TR
Perhaps you are correct here, but I would point out that there are more "peasant" stands (potentially 64) than "clan warrior" stands (48 potentially) by your organization. Perhaps the "Clan Warriors" need more diversification to include Sling, Javelin/ Light Spear, Bow variations as well. Additionally, there would probably be a strong need to flip the maximum number of bases between these 2 troop types; if Clan Warriors were the bulk of the army, then why are they not, by definition, the bulk of what you can field? Perhaps you are just specifying the MELEE troops... It still sounds a bit tricky to balance IMO...
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