Melee engagements during the era of Pike and Shot

[TheJay13]

So I've heard some people theorize that in this era of warfare, pike units didn't actually engage other pike units as it would have been too deadly and the men would not have willingly engaged in the fight. What is the verdict on this?

[jomni]

Someone asked the same question here. No real definite answer though.
http://historum.com/war-military-histor ... uries.html


Just so side track.
The Japanese invented a different style of fighting. They would pound with spears instead of thrust.



Video:

http://youtu.be/Un8c1UV1QBI

[TheJay13]

Despite how silly that looks I suspect it was rather unpleasant being wacked with a yari tip. I can imagine why they would develop such a tactic due to the general abundance of at least some armor on nearly every soldier in sengoku japan. Probably effective for disrupting the enemy and forcing a retreat whereby the glorious samurai could ride in and cut down some of the shameful ashigaru lol.

[TheGrayMouser]

So I've heard some people theorize that in this era of warfare, pike units didn't actually engage other pike units as it would have been too deadly and the men would not have willingly engaged in the fight. What is the verdict on this?

I doudt there is any verdict but at least in the ealier period there was certainly very violent and bloody collisions of pike vs pike. Swiss vs Swiss, Swiss vs everyone else etc during the Italian wars etc. Even as late as the English Civil wars there was the "push of the pike" Perhaps later in the end of the 1600's with so few pikes and the greater ability to harm the enemy at a "standoff' range with lots of muskets meant troops became less likley to close , perhaps by inclination at ist, and later by doctrine. Also, the more musketeers meant less of anyone wearing armor which would further dissuade wanting to actually melee.

I have to say, the "thwacking of the pike" by the Japanese is surpising and I find it almost not believable... Perhaps one of those things that was done once because of a specific situation? I mean , trying to get any momentum from a long vertical pole is surprisingly hard to do. ( I occasionally have to use a roof rake , 20 feet of aluminum pole that would be very light vs a pike, and it is almost impossble to get the thing on tack if it moves a little in the direction you dont want it too... There would be no way to swing something like that with any force, basically, you would just have the thing "fall" onto a target..

[fogman]

So I've heard some people theorize that in this era of warfare, pike units didn't actually engage other pike units as it would have been too deadly and the men would not have willingly engaged in the fight. What is the verdict on this?

a pike fight wouldn't be any more bloodier than a bill fight and the war of the roses is filled with close combat slaughters. why would the swiss or landsknechte be less brave than the english militias?

[kongxinga]

Perhaps we are talking about a few incidents in the Italian wars were dodgy italian mercenaries fought other dodgy italian mercenaries? I know there were a couple of battles where no one died from the enemy (couple of accidents though). This is probably why Machievelli in the Prince advised against using mercenaries.

By the way, what manga is that from?

[rbodleyscott]

Perhaps we are talking about a few incidents in the Italian wars were dodgy italian mercenaries fought other dodgy italian mercenaries? I know there were a couple of battles where no one died from the enemy (couple of accidents though). This is probably why Machievelli in the Prince advised against using mercenaries.

Also he almost certainly exaggerated the bloodlessness to make his case.

[imitation_legionary]

Pike vs pike would probably be more shoving than killing, given that the pikes will block each other. Philip Sabin mentions reenacators have found that pike units can push each other back several hundred meters - push of pike indeed!

Of course if you can break the cohesion of a pike unit it can be slaughtered, hence the rodeleros, halberdiers and two-handed swordsmen trying to hack their way into it. But it was no easy task, as evidenced by pike formations lasting into the musket and artillery era.

[rbodleyscott]

Pike vs pike would probably be more shoving than killing, given that the pikes will block each other. Philip Sabin mentions reenacators have found that pike units can push each other back several hundred meters - push of pike indeed!

Of course re-enactors keep their pikes vertical so as to avoid killing people, the opposite of a real pike fight.

[imitation_legionary]

Of course re-enactors keep their pikes vertical so as to avoid killing people, the opposite of a real pike fight.

True, but you can still get valuable results from reenactments even if they don't kill each other. Also two hedges of pikes blocking each other and creating a kind of lockdown effect (after first impact) isn't hard to imagine.