War Wagons

[Khan]

Hi Troops,
I want to run EAP Cyrus the Great 546 BC. Has anyone used war wagons / siege towers under FOG V2?
If so any advice on what works and what doesn't?
Any absolute no nos?

Poor camels armed with bow?
Any advice?

Scythed chariots?
Any advice?

[philqw78]

The camels would be useful behind any HF fighting mounted

[timmy1]

For those not familiar with the Powell idiom, this could more clearly be transliterated as 'The camels would be useful behind any HF that are fighting against mounted opponents'. Phil is not suggesting that the HF would be mounted no matter that the rules of English grammer might imply otherwise...

I would like to think that it was due to Phil being 'tired and emotional' but before lunch is early even for Powell...

[Khan]

Are the camels just as effective behind the Sparabara or Immortals or does the extra base depth or medium foot put them too far back?
Since they are poor and I have poor light foot I was going to put them behind the poor light foot and send them out against enemy light foot or light horse.

I was reading about the war wagons. It says they shoot from the long side and that they don't exert a restricted zone. Do they move by the long edge or by the short edge?
If by the short edge then am I correct in assuming they move in a single column and then turn like a row of battleships firing a broadside to shoot?

Are the scythed chariots any good moving as a group with the Persian cavalry?

[ravenflight]

Are the camels just as effective behind the Sparabara or Immortals or does the extra base depth or medium foot put them too far back?
Since they are poor and I have poor light foot I was going to put them behind the poor light foot and send them out against enemy light foot or light horse.

I was reading about the war wagons. It says they shoot from the long side and that they don't exert a restricted zone. Do they move by the long edge or by the short edge?
If by the short edge then am I correct in assuming they move in a single column and then turn like a row of battleships firing a broadside to shoot?

Are the scythed chariots any good moving as a group with the Persian cavalry?

The camels would have to be less than 1 base width from the mounted to have any effect, so would only work with heavy foot, or 1 rank of other foot, or if you could engineer (very difficult) them to be off to the side and slightly behind foot yet within 1 base width of the enemy mounted fighting. If you had hoplites rear supported by camelry then you would pretty much have a force that no knights would willingly go up against. I'd even consider it with poor hoplites.

[Khan]

Ok thanks for the pointers. Since the camels are bow armed and assuming that they are moving as a group with the heavy foot are they able to shoot over the heads of heavy foot?

Any experience with war wagons?

[ravenflight]

Ok thanks for the pointers. Since the camels are bow armed and assuming that they are moving as a group with the heavy foot are they able to shoot over the heads of heavy foot?

Any experience with war wagons?

No, they can't, but they are so cheap they are perfectly good at doing the rear supporting/disordering of enemy cavalry thing, but not particularly good at anything else, so 'safe' (i.e. not being shot up and needing to take tests) behind the shield wall, and being effective (i.e. disordering enemy mounted) also by being there. Depending on numbers, and quality of the troops they are behind, they may actually supply 'rear support' as a modifier too!

Ok, looking at it a bit more (I actually got my Immortal Fire book out to answer your other Siciliot hoplite question ) I'd go with 8 poor Hoplites rear supported by 4 camelry, but to be honest, I'd use the arab camelry as rear support as they are 3 points cheaper and about all they are good for.

Poor Camel bow/sword themselves are potentially good at taking on protected mounted that can't shoot. There is nothing 'protected' that is on a horse that will be advantaged against them, and all of their opponents will be disadvantaged, so a good chance that they will have more dice which will compensate for their being poor, however that's a fair number of points (44-66) tied up in a 'hopefully I can use them' situation.

Ultimately, against Greek cavalry, they will probably be ok, against anything with armour or quality... well... perhaps they will have fun running

[Khan]

Moveable Towers (Battle Wagons) I can see that they cannot claim rear support but I cannot find anything to say that they cannot provide rear support. Is that correct?

If a 6 base friendly unit is fighting an 8 base enemy unit such that 2 bases of the enemy unit are overlapping the friendly unit can scythed chariots charge into contact against the overlap? I am asking this to make sure there is no problem with friendly units being in side edge contact with friendly scythed chariots.

Is this legal? an 8 base unit of poor light foot javelinmen expand 6 bases wide into this configuration: JJJJJJ
J J

A 4 fig unit of poor camels in line move up to provide rear support and to disorder enemy light horse who may attack the poor javelinmen such that the formation looks like: JJJJJJ
JCCCCJ
Anything wrong with this?

[petedalby]

Moveable Towers (Battle Wagons) I can see that they cannot claim rear support but I cannot find anything to say that they cannot provide rear support. Is that correct?

I believe Battle Wagons can provide rear support - yes. The Original FAQs give some useful info on Battle Wagons

http://www.fieldofglory.com/file/FoG_Errata_V1_17.pdf

If a 6 base friendly unit is fighting an 8 base enemy unit such that 2 bases of the enemy unit are overlapping the friendly unit can scythed chariots charge into contact against the overlap?

Yes

Is this legal?

Your diagram is a little unclear but I'm guessing the BG is 6 bases wide and with a rear base on the end of the line at both ends? Then yes - that is legal.

A 4 fig unit of poor camels in line move up to provide rear support and to disorder enemy light horse who may attack the poor javelinmen such that the formation looks like: JJJJJJ
JCCCCJ
Anything wrong with this?

Once again this is a legal formation but very weak. Against enemy LH the LF only count 1 in 2 bases - so in serious trouble.

The Cyrus in Lydia option is quite a challenge - there are so few options available because of the date. No LH - so the camels must do that job. The only HF are the 6 bases of Assyrians. The war wagons will have most opponents scratching their heads for a while and I guess they could provide a useful flank guard but are very vulnerable to enemy foot. The Scythed Chariots may be useful supporting the Persian Cavalry or the Persian Foot. The core of the army will be the Immortals and the Persian cavalry - it is likely to be quite small in terms of BGs.

Possible list: IC, 2 x TC, 2 x 8 Immortals, 2 x 4 Persian Cav, 2 x 8 Persian Foot, 1 x 4 Poor Camels, 2 x 2 BwGs, 1 x 2 ScyCh, 1 x 4 Assyrians (rear support for the Persian foot) 1 x 8 Poor LF Bow and a fortified camp - 11 BGs - 800AP.

[Khan]

Many thanks for the reply. The idea with the Camels supporting the LF is two fold. Against 1 enemy LH they will stand and throw javelins unless they get charged then they will evade behind the camels. If they are approached by 2 units of LH then the LF will evade behind the camels and hopefully the camels will scare off the LH.

I was thinking of taking the Immortals as either 2 units of 6 bases armoured superior or 2 units of 8 bases protected superior. Which is better?

I am still unsure of how the moveable towers "Move". If they are part of a battleline then they must be facing forward with their short edge but the rules state that they only shoot from their long side edge?? So what happens if they are moving by their short edge in a column and get contacted by enemy surely there is no overlap against a moveable tower? In the impact I presume it is 2 dice each and the same in the hand to hand unless the second tower expands to be adjacent to the first tower. Again they would be fighting with their narrow edges. Is this okay?

[petedalby]

Sorry - wrong link posted - try this:

http://www.fieldofglory.com/file/FAQ_ver5.01.pdf

[grahambriggs]

Hi Troops,
I want to run EAP Cyrus the Great 546 BC. Has anyone used war wagons / siege towers under FOG V2?
If so any advice on what works and what doesn't?
Any absolute no nos?

Poor camels armed with bow?
Any advice?

Scythed chariots?
Any advice?

So: the war wagons. You move them from the front as per any other troops but they fight best to the side. So you tend to want them not moving straight towards the enemy. Since they are slow they are probably better used on a defensive flank. They are cheap in 2s - 34 points - and perhaps more resilient than in 4s which are a bigger target.

The camels are handy. I use them in my mounted version of EAP but they don't get swords there. As others have said, the disorder can be good. Also, people view them as a target (frankly they often are) but they are not as bad as people think. They are good enough against skirmishers, for example. And a unit of battle troops that only costs 44 points can still hit flanks very effectively - or need facing off by much more expensive enemy.

Scythed chariots. Also cheap in 2s. 30 points. Read the special rules as they behave very differently. Particularly, they are one shot but nobody minds them dying. And since you just remove them in the JAP, the enemy don't get to pursue. I use them just to get in the way of enemy power troops like elephants or pikes. Try to stop them charging if you can - they'll last longer. Don't let the enemy shoot at them though - they are horribly vulnerable.

If you use all of these 'funnies' you'll have 5 BGs of useable troops for 172 points - not a bad investment. Add in two each of immortals, spararbara, cavalry and some skirmishers and you'll have a useable army. OK, the later EAP armies are more effective but this variant is certainly playable.

[Khan]

Thanks Graham for the pointers. While I think the EAP 479 BC list you gave me in Washington is the best EAP list going around I really enjoy playing with the 450 BC list with all the little units from all over the empire. I don't do that great with it but I love the look of it on the table.
One of my biggest competition wins ever was using EAP Cyrus the Great 546 BC under DBM 3.1. I had to fight 5 blade armies out of 6 opponents to win with nearly 40 players in the comp. So I sort of have a soft spot for the army. Since I have never seen it used under FOG I presumed it was less effective. Perhaps I should play it a few times at home before I consider taking it overseas. Hope to see you in Lisbon.

[philqw78]

For those not familiar with the Powell idiom, this could more clearly be transliterated as 'The camels would be useful behind any HF that are fighting against mounted opponents'. Phil is not suggesting that the HF would be mounted no matter that the rules of English grammer might imply otherwise...

I would like to think that it was due to Phil being 'tired and emotional' but before lunch is early even for Powell...

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