Graeco-Bactrian

[ethan]

This is a very flexible list that can be run as a fairly traditional successor or a an all mounted cavalry heavy force or an all mounted light horse heavy force or just about anything in between.

I went for the hybrid in a game this week and found it quite interesting to play. I used:

IC, 3xTC as generals, +4 Initiative

1 Mountain Indian Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
2 Euzonoi LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 8
3 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
4 Mountain Indian Spearmen MF Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear - - 8
5 Cretans LF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 6
6 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
7 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
8 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
9 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
10 Saka Cavalry Cv Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
11 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
12 Iranian Lancers Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 6

and led them to a (narrow) victory over a Sarmation army. I found this a lot of fun to play but very nerve wracking at times - it is imperative that you draw off some enemy heavies with the light horse or your more limited heavy force, even with 24 pikemen, will get overwhelmed.

I would probably change up the deployment, switching the mountain Indians and the #11 Light Horse perhaps. The mountain indians have two roles, mostly as rear support for the phalanx but also in combination with the Euzonoi to blow out troops blocking terrain.

[babyshark]

An interesting list, Ethan. Did you find the Mountain Indian MF to be very useful, other than as rear support? I have been pondering the role of troops like that and have not been able to decide whether they are useful or not.

I have wanted GBs to work since DBM, but could never create a list that gave me more than moderate success. Perhaps I should have another go at them in FoG. I do like the look of the Bactrian LH, with Bw and light spear.

Marc

[ethan]

I have just used them the once and they were just rear support. I have seen enough games now to feel that being able to contest terrain feels pretty important, especially as this army will be tempted to put the heavier troops on one flank and getting hung up by a few bad guys there isn't what you want.

Something like this seems workable as well:

1 Cretans LF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 6
2 Euzonoi LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 6
3 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
4 Saka Cv Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
5 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
6 Bactrian Light Cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow Light spear - - 6
7 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
8 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
9 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
10 Iranian Lancers Cv Armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 6
11 Elephants EL - Average Undrilled - - - - 2
12 Elephants EL - Average Undrilled - - - - 2

[Montagu]

Questions...

How many points is the army? I don't see many people put points on their lists. Is 800 a standard or something?

You are going 8 stands of pike per BG. Are you using them 2 wide x 4 deep to get the additional POA? It seems to me that not going 4 deep defeats the advantage of pike but being only 2 wide isn't enough frontage of infantry. If you are doing 2x4, how are you dealing with frontage issues (if any)?

Thanks!

[nikgaukroger]

Questions...

How many points is the army? I don't see many people put points on their lists. Is 800 a standard or something?

800 points is pretty much the standard for singles games.

You are going 8 stands of pike per BG. Are you using them 2 wide x 4 deep to get the additional POA? It seems to me that not going 4 deep defeats the advantage of pike but being only 2 wide isn't enough frontage of infantry. If you are doing 2x4, how are you dealing with frontage issues (if any)?

Thanks!

I'd expect them to be 4 deep. On frontage there are 3 of them, you don't fights BGs in isolation!

[ethan]

Questions...

How many points is the army? I don't see many people put points on their lists. Is 800 a standard or something?

You are going 8 stands of pike per BG. Are you using them 2 wide x 4 deep to get the additional POA? It seems to me that not going 4 deep defeats the advantage of pike but being only 2 wide isn't enough frontage of infantry. If you are doing 2x4, how are you dealing with frontage issues (if any)?

Thanks!

800 AP army. The pikes all go 4 deep. The idea is to twist apart the enemy army enough to get a reasonably favorable match up for the Pk/Cataphracts. It isn't very different from say a Parthian army in taht respect. Would you prefer say 12-16 cataphracts or 6 cataphracts and 24 pike?

Certainly all the pikes deploy together as a block.

[babyshark]

I really like your second list, Ethan. It sure packs a powerful wallop. Would you be deploying the El seperately from the Pk, or together--perhaps interspersed?--with the Pk?

Marc

[ethan]

I really like your second list, Ethan. It sure packs a powerful wallop. Would you be deploying the El seperately from the Pk, or together--perhaps interspersed?--with the Pk?

Marc

Probably can't easily intersperse without really telegraphing that you are doing it given the order of march. The idea is to be able to deploy them to support teh pike, or as a seperate force to threaten another spot. You could re-arrange the order of march and have the second to last group be (Pk,Pk,El) with the last being (Pk, El, Lancers) which would let you intersperse if you wanted.

[babyshark]

Ethan (or anyone else with useful ideas):

Have you used this army recently? Do you have any further comments on it? I was looking at it last night and thinking of using it as a Cat delivery system and de-emphasing the Pk.

Mostly, though, I was thinking of the role of the El. Do you use the two BGs side by side or do you spread them out looking for a matchup advantage?

Marc

[hammy]

I am not sure about GB after their very poor showing at the Oxford doubles. Oxford was however a 1000 point comp so there was a lot less space for the skirmishers to work in.

I suspect that at 800 point not having any pike might be a better option. Looking at the list I am not sure there are enough mounted skirmishers to do that.

I have a very successful Sunday with a 900 Bosphoran army and I would have happily taken on a GB with that although an all mounted GB may have been more of an issue.

My Bosphorans had 30 bases of bow sword light horse in 6 BGs, 32 bases of assorted light foot in 4 BGs, 2 BGs of quality medium foot and 3 BGs of decent lancers. To do similar with GB you could substitute cats for the MF but I think it would still be a touch short on missile power. Once you start heading down the pike route you are quite likely to end up facing armies that have done pikes or armoured spears properly so will badly outnumber you or not at all in which case the pike are not that much use.

I do like the Bactrian LH though.

[philqw78]

Take the Saka/Scythian ally and you have enough LH to do without foot at 800. At 1000pts you either take the foot or some Indian LH. I think this works better at 800pts all mounted no indians.