Overpowered Medievals

[durrati]

A previous subject said the medieval armies seem to be more succesful - alot of people then said that the ones that are have no knights and then the thread got really interesting about if Nik is going to go to the doubles. In the midst of all this some points were made about why medievals might outclass classicals that got ignored.

It was claimed that knights were a red herring and that the medievals were on the whole better because

They have protected LH which allows them to dominate the skirmsh battle
Their main line of battle troops have on the whole better armour giving them the edge in the main clash
They seem to have access to small BGs of skirmishers wereas classicals don't allowing them to bulk up
I also would not call Knights a red herring - they outclass all other mounted troops

Do people think this adds up to a significant advantage? Is this important? Might we need to see more themed tournaments? Should Amy Winehouse go to Rehab?

[babyshark]

They have protected LH which allows them to dominate the skirmsh battle
Their main line of battle troops have on the whole better armour giving them the edge in the main clash
They seem to have access to small BGs of skirmishers wereas classicals don't allowing them to bulk up
I also would not call Knights a red herring - they outclass all other mounted troops

If these factors were as significant as people are afraid that they are, then we would have seen more dominance by medieval armies (esp. with regard to knights). And we have not. The advantages listed do give medieval armies an advantage in some areas, but they all cost points. And--so far--the FoG point system seems to be pretty well balanced.

Do people think this adds up to a significant advantage?

No.

Is this important?

No.

Might we need to see more themed tournaments?

No.

Should Amy Winehouse go to Rehab?

No, no, no.



Marc

[Templar]

I would like to see more themed tourneys but I hate playing outside of era. I really don't even like playing for example an ordannance French Army with an early HYW themed English army.

[madaxeman]

Medieval armies don't dominate,so far, but they did do a bit better and were the choice for the better players st the bhgs challenge.

The other angle is whether the choice of classical armies is skewed towards those able to take on medieval.

My Challenge army was tailored for this. This also may have been a reason for less Romans than expected showing up.

So more themed tourneys gets my vote

[hammy]

The thread started because the top places at the BHGS challenge were taken by medieval armies. That they were also take by very good players could either mean that good players win tournaments, good players pick the most powerfull armies or a bit of both.

It was claimed that knights were a red herring and that the medievals were on the whole better because

They have protected LH which allows them to dominate the skirmsh battle

Only a small number of medieval armies get protected LH, two of the armies in the top three didn't have any light horse.

Their main line of battle troops have on the whole better armour giving them the edge in the main clash

The army that won used IIRC mainly protected infantry and the armies that came second had most of their troops only protected (OK they were longbowmen but....)

They seem to have access to small BGs of skirmishers wereas classicals don't allowing them to bulk up

Two of the top three armies had hardly any skirmishers.

I also would not call Knights a red herring - they outclass all other mounted troops

Knights are very good in close combat against other mounted but undrilled knights are not that fast, unmaneuverable, come in small BGs because they are expensive and need to be supported. They are good but they are by no means super troops.

I used a Sanata Hermandad Nueva Castilian army in the last two competitions I played and did well in both. The reason I chose it was that it has a good mix of troops specifically, decent heavy infantry, some quality and some OK medium foot, good skirmishers and heavy mounted. Medieval armies don't have a monopoly on such things. Don't get me wrong I think that SHNC is a really good army but the 800 point version I use doesn't tick all the boxes you have listed.

[rbodleyscott]

The other angle is whether the choice of classical armies is skewed towards those able to take on medieval.

I think this is a very valid point. Clearly pikes and spearmen are the best bet in this regard.

So more themed tourneys gets my vote

And also that of most others - though I think on general principles rather than because of any perceived imbalance.

The results of the original poll I posted on the Yahoo group were as follows:
(66 replies)

45% Strongly prefer themed tournaments
24% Mildly prefer themed tournaments
16% No preference
3% Mildly prefer open tournaments
10% Strongly prefer open tournaments

Thus 69% prefer themed tournaments and only 13% prefer open tournaments. (More than 5:1 in favour of themes).

Not surprisingly the clone poll on this board shows similar results.

[miffedofreading]

I didn't see any poll, but my vote is 100% themed tournaments with the theme as narrow as possible

[ethan]

The thread started because the top places at the BHGS challenge were taken by medieval armies. That they were also take by very good players could either mean that good players win tournaments, good players pick the most powerfull armies or a bit of both.

Or people don't really know what is good and/or many things are competitive. Given that, the top players might have a preference to trying out things that weren't so great in DBM because they are interesting and different.

[hazelbark]

Not to be overlooked is the results of a single tournament often can be skewed.

Perhaps more skewed with authors present. Beta testing clubs present. Note to mention the infernal seedings.

I think like any game engine there is a going to be an evolution. Just as people thought PIke was the Cat's meow. ++ POA solves everything doesn't it?

Then we see the next step of the evolution. Also there are a lot of people who will shove the troops headlong in, that tends to reward hard sloggers which the medievals have. But as manuver armies arrive that may change.

Still I am for themes.

[Malidor]

So more themed tourneys gets my vote

And also that of most others - though I think on general principles rather than because of any perceived imbalance.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Of course your poll backs it up too - but the 'mood' of the mob seems to be in favour of flavour rather than concerns about cheese or beards

I think like any game engine there is a going to be an evolution. Just as people thought Pike was the Cat's meow. ++ POA solves everything doesn't it?

My math is very weak but in the games I've played it has felt like having more dice than your opponent is more desirable than getting POAs over them - either from disrupting/fragmenting your target in shooting/impact or having an overlap or double overlap in melee. A double POA is still awesome though, and there's nothing wrong with both a POA and a dice advantage!

Then we see the next step of the evolution. Also there are a lot of people who will shove the troops headlong in, that tends to reward hard sloggers which the medievals have. But as maneuver armies arrive that may change.

In the past I have played 'collectable' games of various types and what I liked about them was the rapid evolution of thought amongst the inspiring players as they find obscure combos (sadly some of which become game breaking). FoG is better in that the combos are not killer or insta-win, but a little bit of meta-game in the player base is nice... 'what are the celebrities doing now!?'

[clivevaughan]

Richard - so will Godendag be themed next year?

[bahdahbum]

Basically, If possible I would theme it in tywo big periods : before and after knights

For some armies it would be tricky as some byzantines did have to fight norman knights , but if the theme is to restricted, players will need many armies just to be able to attend and not everyone can afford that .

[hammy]

Basically, If possible I would theme it in tywo big periods : before and after knights

For some armies it would be tricky as some byzantines did have to fight norman knights , but if the theme is to restricted, players will need many armies just to be able to attend and not everyone can afford that .

I would be tempted to go for more themes if you are talking big themes the following sound good to me:

Biblical
Classical
Dark ages
Medieval

The early knights are nowhere near as powerful as the later ones. I have tried armoured knights and they are really rather vulnerable to missiles, Crusader battles can get rather interesting with armoured knights against armoured Ghilmen

[rbodleyscott]

Richard - so will Godendag be themed next year?

Well it was themed this year. What I have to decide is whether to offer one or two separate themes.

[hammy]

Is there a date for next year's Godendag yet? It looks like I may already have a double booking tournament wise

[madaxeman]

[

I would be tempted to go for more themes if you are talking big themes the following sound good to me:

Biblical
Classical
Dark ages
Medieval

Thats neat. But the names are a bit long and unweildy.
Maybe we could have a form of shorthand and call them "Book1", "Book2", "Book3" and "Book 4"?

tim
Personally I think starting a whole Yahoo! Group just for discussion of Charles Grant era Battlefront US Marines is a sign this hobby is getting just a little too fragmented - in my opinion (www.madaxeman.com)

[thefrenchjester]

Hi all ,
in France we try to improve the place of the themed tournaments , some ideas emerged : from date to date , by geographical themeand others exemples like :from Marathon to Actium , from teutoburg wald to Andrianople, from Crécy to Nancy and many others suffisantly large choice to have various Armies ;
for the moment we have only some discuss about that , nothing fixed , just a mix of ideas but seems to be interesting , what do you think about that ?
regards
thefrenchjester

[hazelbark]

Hi all ,
in France we try to improve the place of the themed tournaments , some ideas emerged : from date to date , by geographical themeand others exemples like :from Marathon to Actium , from teutoburg wald to Andrianople, from Crécy to Nancy and many others suffisantly large choice to have various Armies ;
for the moment we have only some discuss about that , nothing fixed , just a mix of ideas but seems to be interesting , what do you think about that ?

I think that is a very cool way to do that. My current french theme is Rhone, but the Burgundy is also quite appealing. Can we arrange a wine tour and FoG tournament?

Seriously i think the historical battle description is a very wise way to go.

[rbodleyscott]

Is there a date for next year's Godendag yet? It looks like I may already have a double booking tournament wise

24th & 25th January 2009

[hammy]

Is there a date for next year's Godendag yet? It looks like I may already have a double booking tournament wise

24th & 25th January 2009

Yup, I thought as much, double booked for games events in 2009 already

This year I think I turned down a really cheap trip to Athens to play at Usk, next year it may well mean turning down a cheap trip to Portugal