Lance vs Spear interaction

[sgtsteiner]

Hi

Question ref POAs used in this interaction (not a compliant just a query)

When Lance armed mounted hit Steady Spear they lose their Lance POA and the Spear gain a POA for being steady, this seems a bit of a 'double-dunter' on the Lancers.
Subsequently at Impact vs Steady Spear the Lancers fight -1 POA ie on 5's vs Spr on 4's.
Yet in Melee the Lancers revert to sword and fight on even POAs vs the Spr if still steady (assuming that is that the Lancers are better armoured)

I realise the key component is the Steadiness of the Spear and that if the Lancers get lucky they inflict a -1 to Waver test but it does seem a bit 'bass-ackward' in that surely the Lancers should be at their most potent at impact (ie maximum POA) rather than during Melee ?

Moral of story is not to charge Lancers into Steady Spears of course

Cheers

[rbodleyscott]

Well the answer is that the lancers are at their most potent in the impact phase against suitable targets. Steady spearmen are not a suitable target.

Charge them into MF non-spearmen, however, or non-lance-armed cavalry, and their impact effect really is noticeable.

[hammy]

Lancers vs:

HF Pike: --
HF Spear: -
HF Impact foot: 0
HF Light spear: 0
HF Heavy weapon: +

MF Spear: 0
MF Impact foot: +
MF Light spear:+
MF Heavy weapon: ++
MF Bow: ++

Cavalry non lancers: +

And they put a -1 on the enemy CT if they win!!

Overall not a bad set of capabilities IMO.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi

Yep I get that Lancers are good against everything else

Just seemed bit 'odd' that the Spear get the +POA and Lance loses its +POA at same time but its just a different interaction than I am used to (ie KnF vs SpI in Dbmm) much more akin to 7th edt effects.

Still on the learning curve.............

[hammy]

Hi

Yep I get that Lancers are good against everything else

Just seemed bit 'odd' that the Spear get the +POA and Lance loses its +POA at same time but its just a different interaction than I am used to (ie KnF vs SpI in Dbmm) much more akin to 7th edt effects.

Still on the learning curve.............

If you compare to DBM then Kn are factor 3 and Sp factor 5, a draw will result in the Sp dying but the most likely result is that the Kn will recoli making the next fight 2 vs 5. If you then add in that in DBM Kn(F) are 1 worse off if they lose in either bound and once there is a recoil the combat is effectively 2 vs 6 if the Kn lose when overlapped and 2 vs 4 if the Kn win. Not pretty for the knights.

In DBMM for some reason Phil has seen fit to: Increase the combat factor of Kn vs infantry by 1, remove the negative aspect of overlaps agains most foot in the Kn bound and change the (F) grading back so that the Kn are not penalised if they lose in their bound. As a result the main combat is 4 vs 5 and stays that way even with overlaps. The Kn kill the Sp if they roll higher and the Sp need a 5-1 or 6-1 for a kill!!!

I would suggest that DBMM is the game where perhaps Kn are a little over rated.

I don't recall the 7th edition interraction but I think that spear were about the best thing to hold off the charge of lancers.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi Hammy

I would suggest that DBMM is the game where perhaps Kn are a little over rated.

I don't recall the 7th edition interraction but I think that spear were about the best thing to hold off the charge of lancers.

Yes in Dbmm KnF in their own turn are rather potent vs Spears (not so much in enemy turn as overlaps and F take affect although Spear lose back rank)

In 7th LTS foot were not likely to be ridden down by Lancers although Irr A Normans in wedge could give it a go

Again not a compliant as such vs FOG as its just a different interaction/interpretation.
Guess I was looking for (expecting ?) an Impetus or Quick Kill advantage such as in Dbmm, Armati or Might Of Arms that is not as overt in FOG ie its subsumed into the -1 on waver test for losing to Lance.

Here are pics of game yesterday with Lancers in contact with Spears note my usual losing dice and yes I did re-roll the 1's as mostly more 1's

Cheers

[hammy]

I have had my spearmen ridden down by knights in FoG, it isn't common but whe it happens it is very annoying.

I think that it was average spear vs superior lancers lead by a general which actually means the lancers have a decent chance of pulling of a win at impact. Having crunched the numbers in this situation the lancers have about a 30% chance of a win at impact and if they win then their opponent is testing at -1, -2 or even -3!! I make the -3 a just over 10% chance so lancers can do the job.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi Hammy

The Abbassid spears were Prot HF but did have 3rd rank archers whose extra dice at impact did help their cause.

Note the photo shows Melee phase (hence tidy line-ups) after having lost all Impacts but passing waver tests but losing 1 base to death roll. Then in melee I again suffered a base loss (of course same BG !) but again passed 3 waver tests.
Lancers then all broke off
Me being me I then hurled 2 BG back into fray with my My FC General joining the fun but still managed to lose even re-rolling 1 & 2's
and of course he then promptly fell of his steed as opponnent rolled double 6
This caused multiple waver tests which I failed miserably without exception and then in ensuing melee Routs occurred causing yet more wavering which (with echoes of "this is the sound of your impending doom Mr Anderson" ringing in my ears) led to all my Lancers and some LH fleeing the field.....................

Cheers

[rbodleyscott]

What makes you think that lancers were good at riding down steady spearmen historically?

Our reading of history is that this was not a matchup that favoured the lancers.

Nevertheless, in FOG the lancers often do win eventually, thanks to better quality and armour. (Possibly after charging more than once).

However, if at all possible, lancers would be wiser to seek a better target.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi

What makes you think that lancers were good at riding down steady spearmen historically?

I have no contention ref their lack of prowess vs STEADY Spearmen overall, I was just querying the mechanism of the Lancers losing a +POA AND the Spear gaining a +POA at same time in Impact.
But its just a rule mechanism and I can live with it especially as Lancers get 2nd bite at cherry in Melee

Cheers

[flameberge]

I think the game mechanism works well since I would imagine it would be difficult to get a horse to charge into a thicket of spears and if they did I don't think it would work very well. Horses are not stupid animals. I think it would be difficult to get them to charge a block of pikes.

[rich0101]

My thing is that the pike and spear would be better than the Knights in the impact, because the horses and knights are running into big pointy sticks that skewer horses and knights.
Just my lowly opinion.
Rich

[marshalney2000]

Remember Bannockburn I say.