Parthians at the Challenge

[daveallen]

I find it’s always best to have my excuses in place well in advance of an event. For the Challenge they go like this – got back from holiday in New York 11.30 Friday night, thoroughly jet lagged and I’d only had two practice games as I hadn’t even planned to be at the tournament a month ago. Actually, I didn’t do badly enough to need them so they’re mainly to explain why I can‘t remember a great deal about some of my games and why some of what I do remember might not be quite right…

Parthians with Saka ally (25mm, 650pts on a 6’x4’)

IC, FC, TC, TC ally

4 LH Unp, Undr, Av, Bow
4 LH Unp, Undr, Av, Bow
6 LH Unp, Undr, Av, Bow

4 LH Unp, Undr, Av, Bow
4 LH Unp, Undr, Av, Bow, Swd
6 LH Unp, Undr, Av, J/LS

4 Cat HArm, Undr, Sup, L/Swd
4 Cat HArm, Undr, Sup, L/Swd

4 Cv Unp, Undr, Av, Bow, Swd
2 Ele Ave

10 BGs +4 initiative

The elephants were my anti-Kn weapons but they never caught any in four games and were destroyed by some in the fifth. The Saka ally was there to give me some Cav but they proved a liability in every game, they were difficult to maneouvre and vulnerable to even the slightest shooting.

Unsurprisingly, I won the initiative in all five games and chose to fight in the steppes so the terrain was insignificant.

Game 1 Richard Jeffrey-Cook Seleucid

FC & 3 TCs ?

8 HF Prot, Dr, Ave, Pike
8 HF Prot, Dr, Ave, Pike
8 HF Prot, Dr, Ave, Off Sp

8 HF Prot, Dr, Sup, Pike
8 MF Prot, Undr, Ave, HW
4 LH Unp, Undr, Av, J/LS

8 LF Unp, Undr, Av, Bow
2 Ele Ave

4 Cat Harm, Dr, Sup, L/Swd
4 Cv Arm, Dr, Elite, L/ Swd

Richard advanced with the Cav and Cataphracts on his right, foot spread across the centre and LH on his left. My Cats faced his right and had the elephants in support, the LH delayed his foot and dealt with the LH on the other flank.

Shooting by the LH was ineffectual and they were gradually pushed to my table edge, some running off and Richard looted my camp. Meanwhile one of my Cats wiped out the Agema in short order and turned to help its colleague despatch the Seleucid Cats.They then turned and were just shy of catching the Pikes from behind when time was called. I think my elephants were skewered on pike and barbecued that night.

A 9-11 defeat

Game 2 Bob Medcraft was the other Seleucid

6 LF Unpr Undr Ave Bow
6 LF Unpr Undr Sup Bow
6 LF Unpr Undr Ave J/LS

8 HF P Dr Ave Pike
8 HF P Dr Ave Pike
4 LH Unpr Undr Ave Bow

8 HF P Dr Ave Pike
4 HF Arm Dr Sup IF/SSwd
4 HF Arm Dr Sup IF/SSwd

6 MF P Undr Ave HW
6 MF Unpr Undr Ave Bow


Don’t remember too much about this one except that this time I pulled the LH out from in front of the pike in plenty of time. I still lost my camp but having six Thracians instead of eight, lots of LF and those MF Bow in the army made it much easier to beat up. 23-2

Game 3 Adam Worsdale, Mid Republican Roman

4 LF Pr Dr Av J/LS
4 LF Unpr Dr Av J/LS
4 Cav Arm, Undr Av LS/Swd

4 HF Arm Dr Sup IF/SSwd
4 HF Arm Dr Sup IF/SSwd
8 HF Arm Dr Sup IF/SSwd

4 LH Unpr Undr Ave J/LS
2 HF Arm Dr El OffSp
2 HF Arm Dr El OffSp

2 Ele Ave
4 MF P Dr Sup LSp/Swd

Adam deployed across about 60% of the table, this was the only time I got a free flank to operate on. On his left he put the LH then the MF in a patch of uneven going that was about 8” in from the table edge. The Hastati were next to the Broken Ground fronted by their Velites with the Triarii behind for support and the Cv echeloned back from their right flank. Can’t remember much about his elephants.

I put the Saka allies on the far left, the elephants and one cataphract facing Adam’s right and the other cat on his left, as usual the majority of my LH covered his advance..

Not much happened in the centre for a few turns as the Velites took some shooting to no effect and then the Hastati began a series of charges to push my LH back. On my right I caught Adam’s LH and sent it scurrying from the field. On my left his Cav caught the evading Saka Cav and destroyed them.

In the next phase my Elephants charged some Hastati, I (think) my right hand cataphracts slammed into the MF in the broken ground catching them so that only half the cats were disordered by the terrain. Score one to the legions and one to the cataphracts. The cataphracts then followed up into Triarii catching them in the terrain. On the other flank the Hastati’s pursuit of the elephants left the other unit of Triarii looking lonely so my cataphracts decided to join them. There followed two epic Triarii –v- Cataphract melees where neither side got any advantage for at least four bounds.

Meanwhile, half my LH were very busy harassing the front of the Hastati to stop them supporting the Triarii, some of the rest slipped through the centre and round his left flank to chase down the LF and on my left the Saka LH took revenge for the destruction of their Cav by shooting the Roman Cav to broken.

Finally, the Triarii in the terrain took three hits and threw a 1 on the death dice just as my LH caught the Velites for a 21-4 win.

Oh and I think I lost my camp, again.

Game 4 Jim Gibson Ordonance Burgundian

4 LH Unpr Und Ave Cbw
4 LF P Und Ave Firearm
6 MF P Dr Ave Lbw

8 MF P Dr Ave Lbw
8 MF P Dr Ave Lbw

12 HF P Dr Poor Pike
8 HF P Dr Ave Pike

4 Kn HArm Dr Ave L/Swd
4 Kn HArm Dr Ave L/Swd

This was not good for me. At first it didn’t look too bad as Jim’s deployment echoed the previous game but when his army marched forward they spread out through shifts and expansions to cover more of the field. Also, his right flank was covered by Knights – much scarier than Roman Cav.

My deployment was also similar to last game but this time both Cataphracts and the Elephants were concentrated on my left.

My LH faced a withering fire from Jim’s longbows. One BG became disrupted and lost a base in the first round of shooting, therafter the LH were mostly backpedalling. Similarly, as soon as it got in range a Cataphract BG had a base shot off but they persevered and charged his Longbows after the Elephants ran into his poor Pikemen. The Elephants managed to disrupt and fragment his Pike having surviving about three rounds of fighting but couldn’t break them and were then charged in the flank by Knights, even then they held on until the dreaded death dice got them. The Cataphracts couldn’t even dent the Longbows! And broke before the nellies.

That combined with LH shot to shaken broke the army with almost no damage done to the Burgundians.

0-25

I made several mistakes in this game possibly due to sleep loss but the main one of not realising how effective Longbow are even when one deep was due to inexperience/lack of imagination. Next time I’ll send out a flank march.

Game 5 Dave Ruddock Medieval French

8 Mob Unpr Undr Poor
6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw

6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw
6 MF P Undr Ave Cbw

4 HF HArm Undr Ave HW
4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd

4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd
4 Cav Arm Undr Ave L/Swd

Plus some LF?

Fearing a similar impregnable line I sent two Cataphract BGs on an outflanking march with the FC on my right and both Saka with their General on the left. If I’d known he had so few BGs…

My nellies were facing Knight and Cavalry on my left, the LH were strung out across the front of his Longbow in the centre and a brave LH BG faced two Knight BGs on my right. He had Crossbows supporting the Longbows and I can’t remember where the HF went. The Mob were “protecting” the camp.

My Cataphracts arrived on the fourth turn looking straight into the flank of a Knight BG, he managed to turn and my LH got a good shot in to disrupt them. One BG of Cataphracts charged and was joined as an overlap by the other. These Knights were eventually broken by casualties but not before their mates had charged into the fray and at games end I was left with only five Cataphract bases and both BGs fragmented.

Elsewhere the Elephants were soon destroyed but creative shooting by my LH had pushed both his Longbows to fragmented. This was followed by charges that broke the Longbows and upon seeing this their the Crossbow supports became disrupted. They were then fragmented by the Longbows bursting through and broken when my LH pursued into them. Now that was FUN! (Sorry Dave)

The Saka flank march did arrive and would have been into his camp and the Mob within a couple of turns. I must have lost some LH as well as the nellies because the score was 20-5.

Conclusions

The Parthians did what I expected in all five games – LH messed around until the good stuff could get to their targets; LH did enough shooting damage to reach victory; lost their camp at least three times; dropped dead when faced with better shooters that could go the full width.

They were fun to use even if occasionally frustrating for my opponents. I had five good games and hope my opponents feel the same. Thanks to them, to Paul Brandon for answering endless rules queries without thumping me (I was too brain dead to remember rules or even look them up), and the rest of the team for all their work.

For the future (yes, they will be back!):

Drop the Saka – a failed experiment with “not very good shooty cavalry”
Practise against a wider range of armies
Put my camp in or behind terrain
Increase the number of BGs (11, 12, 13 or even 14)

[philqw78]

Dave, I used Parthians in the 15mm at the Challenge. The Saka work well as LH. The general being cheaper makes up for the extra cost. They are more effective against other LH in melee due to the Sw POA. In fact in one of the games played they came up against some saka Cv, shot it to bits, I outnumbered him 2:1, but wasn't scared of getting caught by the Ct he had in support of them.
Better unprotected LH, than unprotected Cv, especially since they are undrilled so find it difficult to get away if they are in the wrong place.

phil

[timmy1]

Phil, I for one would be thrilled to see what list you used, as I have Parthians and figures to do Saka but have never liked the look of the Ally under Fog, so was going to try Bosphorans instead. A peak at a list that did well MIGHT change my mind.

Thanks
Tim

[philqw78]

IIRC the ally was 3x4 Saka LH Unprot, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen, plus TC general (2pts more expensive than 12 bases of Parthians with a TC). I will check again at work 2morrow, but I think the whole list was

1x IC
2X TC
1x Saka Ally TC
3x6 Parthian cataphracts, Ct, HA, Superior, UD,Lance, Sword
5x4 Parthian LH, UP, Av, UD, Bow
1x6 Parthian Foot, LF, UP, Poor, UD, Bow
3x4 Saka LH, UP, Av, UD, Bow, Sword

Concentration of fire is the key. If the En can shoot put the IC with the LH. Use the Saka against the En decent light troops. Hang Back with the Cats for the right target. Use the LH to split the En battle line and force gaps, hit isolated units with the Cats. Of course this didn't work against Si, but he's had a few more games than me. In fact many many years ago he taught me how to play Bruce Quarrie rules. Lack of punch is the army's main problem, you've got to be able to concentrate the Cats in the right place.

Obviously when the Tibetan list is published they can be drilled and get around faster and surely dismount as HF, HA, Super, Drilled, Off Sp, Bw*. With lots of LH to help. I look forward to that day

[dave_r]

8 Mob Unpr Undr Poor
6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw

6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw
6 MF P Undr Ave Cbw

4 HF HArm Undr Ave HW
4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd

4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd
4 Cav Arm Undr Ave L/Swd

My army was:

8 Mob Unpr Undr Poor
6 MF P Undr Ave Cbw
6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw Swd (Allied)
4 HF HArm Undr Ave HW (Allied)
6 MF P Undr Ave Lbw Swd (Allied)
4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd
4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd
4 Kn HArm Undr Sup L/Swd
4 Cav Arm Undr Ave L/Swd

Elsewhere the Elephants were soon destroyed but creative shooting by my LH had pushed both his Longbows to fragmented. This was followed by charges that broke the Longbows and upon seeing this their the Crossbow supports became disrupted. They were then fragmented by the Longbows bursting through and broken when my LH pursued into them. Now that was FUN! (Sorry Dave)

If it is any consolation, I am still whinging about that now...

My Cataphracts arrived on the fourth turn looking straight into the flank of a Knight BG, he managed to turn and my LH got a good shot in to disrupt them. One BG of Cataphracts charged and was joined as an overlap by the other. These Knights were eventually broken by casualties but not before their mates had charged into the fray and at games end I was left with only five Cataphract bases and both BGs fragmented.

Yes, some Light Horse also charged the rear of my knights who were engaged and went fragged at impact! The cataphracts then passed their morale (needing an 11) to not break in the melee..... Which would have probably also broken the LH and the other cataphracts next to them...

I am still whinging about that as well

[n10cd12]

Anyone mind giving me feedback on this list? It seems very similar to the original post, but as its 800 points its heavier on the Saka Cav to try to deal with light combat (probably alongside the elephants). The cataphracts of course will hang back and attempt to take advantage of out-of-formation units.

Are the elephants completely out of place for the strategy?

I think my biggest fear is armies of massed bowmen (foot or cav).


798 points

C-in-C
1 Inspired Commander 80
Sub-commanders
1 Field Commander
1 Troop Commander
Core Troops
8 Cataphracts (2 BGs of 4)
40 Horse Archers (10 BGs of 4)
Suren Indo-Parthian kingdom from 95BC to 75AD
2 Elephants

Later Skythian or Saka Allies
1 Troop Commander
4 Armored Cavalry
8 Horse Archers (Cav, 2 BGs of 4)



Thanks!

[dave_r]

Hi - you may get a better response if you post this on teh army design forum...

Here is a Parthian I designed:

IC = 3 TC's
12 Cataphracts (2x6)
36 Light Horse (9*4)
12 LF, Poor Sling (2*6)
12 LF, Poor, Bow (2*6)
12 LF, Average, JLS (2*6)

17 BG's 797 points.

Reasoning:

Cataphracts need to be in 6's to work. 6 BG's of rubbish foot to make the army enormous. Otherwise bucketfull's of LH.

[philqw78]

Is there not some rubbishy Indian foot this army must have? (The Kushan)

[daveallen]

Hi N10cd12,

with a name like that what's your password going to be?

Having played only a little 15mm I can't speak from a wealth of experience in the scale but I've never let such minor matters prevent me offering advice in the past so here goes:

I like the Saka ally - you need something to counter shooty Cv armies and this helps.

The elephants I don't like - I know they look nice on paper but as a general rule they need to be deployed en masse (more than one BG) or they are too easily isolated and beaten up by shooting or good infantry. In my experience of course.

I would want at least three BGs of Cats (or possibly two sixes). Usually, they need to operate together and gang up on anything vulnerable so it wouldn't matter too much if they were in sixes which wopuld also be less vulnerable to shooting.

I also think it's important to have some LF to build up the BG total. Poor Javelinmen are good for this, Average Slingers are cheap too and their shooting can cause problems for some armies. Both can be effective at slowing down enemy approaches (especially in terrain) without putting anything valuable at risk or they can cover the front of the Cats and soak up shooting before a charge.

Finally, against massed archers you have to be aggressive, if you faff about you'll get shot to bits before you know it. Get your heavies (including the Skythians) lined up on one flank of the archers and charge them straight in. Use the LF to soak up shooting at long range and once your Cats are in range pull the LF back. You'll have to survive two rounds of shooting but the odds aren't bad and once you're in you have a good chance of winning. If you win the archers will never recover and you have an open flank to play with. If you lose you can try agan next time. Even if you lose all the units that's only a quarter of your army and everything else is hard to catch and can still do shooting damage.

Regards,

Dave Allen

[n10cd12]

Hehe.. thanks for the comments guys.

Actually I saw that my excel sheet was adding things up wrong.. I missed the points for the elephants altogether.

This will be my last post on this thread though since it probably should have been in a different location... sorry.

C-in-C
1 Inspired Commander

Sub-commanders
1 Field Commander

Core Troops
12 Cataphracts (2 units of 6)
34 Horse Archers (7 units of 4, 1 unit of 6)

Optional Troops
6 City Militia/Hillmen (LF, poor, javelins/light spear)
6 City Militia/Hillmen (LF, poor, bow)

Later Skythian or Saka Allies
1 Troop Commander
4 Armored Cavalry (Cav)
6 Horse Archers (Cav)

797 points

-Donovan