Hoplites, tactical use?

[spring]

Hello all,

While waiting for my greek figs to arrive, i was trying to figure tactical ways of using hoplites.
Let's say you have this kind of army composition (the one i'm going to use for a start btw):
6 HF, armoured, average, Off spear *9 units
8 MF, protected, average, Off spear *1 unit
8 LF, unprotected, poor, jav *3 units
8 LF, unprotected, average, sling *2 units
8 LF, unprotected, average, bow *1 unit
4 LH, unprotected, average, jav, light spear *1 unit

So against a combined arms army like Seleucid, would you rather put all those hoplites in one line
or would you keep 1 or 2 hoplite groups back to form a support?
As far as i'm concerned i feel always embarassed to play hoplite in one line without any support
or reserve, and, as much as i like hoplites, i feel deploying and playing in line rather borring,
what do you think guys?

[WhiteKnight]

I would consider some of the hoplite groups in 8s rather than 6s ( maybe 3x8 and 5x6) and definitely have some in a second line forming a reserve and giving rear support, behind the point where two front line BGs touch. There are plenty of troops to cover the less than open terrain areas as well as your front line if you wish to, so the hoplites should be able to trundle through the open spaces with enough left to provide supports.

Martin

[Quintus]

Hoplites. You line 'em up and march forwards. Simple.

[Montagu]

Keeping battle groups close (at times in a battle line) to each other is a sound tactic because you are:
+ protecting their flanks
+ sharing support
+ making it easier for commanders to help the BGs ie fight, cohesion, move
+ protecting the baggage

IMO bigger BGs make sense for where the main fight is going to happen and the smaller ones as flanking or counter flanking or rear support units.

[spring]

@Whiteknight, yup grouping the hoplites in 8s and 6s is an option too, i hope to play a game
soon enough to get a first hand experience of a reasonable army composition^^.

@Quintus, oh come on, how much fun is that? I hope that i can
use them in more ways than just in line and forward!! Because if it's the only way
playing them it's going to be borring pretty quickly. I usually pick a part of the
opponent's army and concentrate through maneuvering on this part, and i hope
that this is possible with an hoplite army, rather than form a line and go forward and let
the dices decide whether i win or lose...hum, i should probably make them drilled
rather than undrilled to achieve enough mobility... dunno ...

@Montagu, sounds like good reasons to keep battle groups close one to another indeed,
but like i said, i'm more a "pick a target and hit it hard" guy rather than "let's push everything
in front and let's see what happen" !! and again i might have to be drilled to have access to the
required mobility of this kind of plan.

[Montagu]

I was looking at the movement table and the only non-complex/impossible for Other Undrilled are Charge, Advance outside of 6 MUs of enemy and Second Moves. The remaining are complex and impossible. IMO, your initial setup with undrilled troops needs to be done extra carefully. Try to minimize the rolling for maneuvers. You can control the rate of advance with second moves and try to counter/flank your opponents moves on the wings with commanders.

Good Luck!

[rbodleyscott]

@Quintus, oh come on, how much fun is that? I hope that i can
use them in more ways than just in line and forward!! Because if it's the only way
playing them it's going to be borring pretty quickly.

Its the only historical way of playing them, and also probably the most effective in the game. If you wanted an army of manoeuvre, I fear you picked the wrong one.

A certain amount of echeloning, with the best quality/armoured BGs hitting the enemy first, is probably the best you can achieve with a hoplite army.

[spike]

Hello all,

While waiting for my greek figs to arrive, i was trying to figure tactical ways of using hoplites.
Let's say you have this kind of army composition (the one i'm going to use for a start btw):
6 HF, armoured, average, Off spear *9 units
8 MF, protected, average, Off spear *1 unit
8 LF, unprotected, poor, jav *3 units
8 LF, unprotected, average, sling *2 units
8 LF, unprotected, average, bow *1 unit
4 LH, unprotected, average, jav, light spear *1 unit

So against a combined arms army like Seleucid, would you rather put all those hoplites in one line
or would you keep 1 or 2 hoplite groups back to form a support?
As far as i'm concerned i feel always embarassed to play hoplite in one line without any support
or reserve, and, as much as i like hoplites, i feel deploying and playing in line rather borring,
what do you think guys?

I was in the beta test so have seen the lists and as a notes to the above:
You can have a maximum of 18 bases of "Poor LF Jav LS" and 18 Bases of other "Bow or Slinger" LF (no more than 12 bow or 12 sling either). so if you want that no of LF BG's you will have them in 6's.
(Also if you have certain city states you can have a lot of Average LF, Jav LS, and fewer hoplites)
Also
You can only have LH if you have Thessalians (either as the main feature or as an ally) and You can only have Armoured Hoplites prior to 450BC, Hoplites are protected from 490BC, so 40 years where both types co-exist and your MF will be Thracian merc's if you want them as OS, with Armoured Hoplites

Otherwise what you have is workable, No messing about aim for the middle of his line and don't stop untill you get in contact, is the first plan. Move in 2 lines Skirmishers in front, hoplites in line 2- Hoplites and generals providing morale support if you take hits from shooting- evade if charged. Armoured OS are v.scary even for Romans!

I had mine painted in time for the release of the book ( and a nice job has been done for me) and Xyston do make great fig's

spike

[spring]

@Richard, " If you wanted an army of manoeuvre, I fear you picked the wrong one. " aaahh that's the story of my life then,
er well gaming life ... When i like the minis then either i don't like the play style or the historical background, when i like the
playstyle i can't find minis i like, when i like the historical background the playstyle doesn't fit..... geez
I think i'll deal with the playstyle then as hoplites are one of my first gaming loves^^. But thanks for the warning...

@Spike, yup i got the list from a post somewhere here, not my creation, i just happened to like the list
Thanks for the clarifications, i hope to get the immortal fire soon, i'll try your plan 1 and 2 as soon as i
finish painting those nice Xyston

[lawrenceg]

@Richard, " If you wanted an army of manoeuvre, I fear you picked the wrong one. " aaahh that's the story of my life then,
er well gaming life ... When i like the minis then either i don't like the play style or the historical background, when i like the
playstyle i can't find minis i like, when i like the historical background the playstyle doesn't fit..... geez
I think i'll deal with the playstyle then as hoplites are one of my first gaming loves^^. But thanks for the warning...

@Spike, yup i got the list from a post somewhere here, not my creation, i just happened to like the list
Thanks for the clarifications, i hope to get the immortal fire soon, i'll try your plan 1 and 2 as soon as i
finish painting those nice Xyston

You could look at some other hoplite-based armies such as Carthaginian and Kyrenean, with more mounted troops to give you some more intereseting tactical possibilities.

[hazelbark]

I was looking at the movement table and the only non-complex/impossible for Other Undrilled are Charge, Advance outside of 6 MUs of enemy and Second Moves. The remaining are complex and impossible. IMO, your initial setup with undrilled troops needs to be done extra carefully. Try to minimize the rolling for maneuvers. You can control the rate of advance with second moves and try to counter/flank your opponents moves on the wings with commanders.

It is not as scary or hard as you make it sound.

Note a lot of moves beyond 6 MU are allowed like short moves and sliding a base width.

Deployment is important but if you are not dispersed too far you have some recover time.

[spring]

@Lawrence, you're right, that's also one of the reasons, apart from the historical appeal, that makes me
stick to Hoplites.
I do plan to alternate with other Hoplite based armies like Kyrenean and Syracusan to
avoid the possible "deja-vu" feeling of linear deploiement. Adding some heavy chariots and elephants
from time to time should make me an happy Hoplite player

[rbodleyscott]

@Lawrence, you're right, that's also one of the reasons, apart from the historical appeal, that makes me
stick to Hoplites.
I do plan to alternate with other Hoplite based armies like Kyrenean and Syracusan to
avoid the possible "deja-vu" feeling of linear deploiement. Adding some heavy chariots and elephants
from time to time should make me an happy Hoplite player

Also check out Late Dynastic Egyptians, Lydians and Late Achaemenid Persians - all of which can have lots of hoplites but also some more manouvrable troops.

[BrianC]

Is it just me or are phalanx BGs just as maneuverable as any other in that they can turn 90 deg etc in a maneuver phase? I was under the impression that turns like that would break up the phalanx but I can't see any restriction in FOG. You can march to a flank position with a phalax and turn to the side then charge in your next impact phase? Can someone more knowledgable tell me where my thinking is wrong?

Thanks

Brian

[OldenTired]

Is it just me or are phalanx BGs just as maneuverable as any other in that they can turn 90 deg etc in a maneuver phase? I was under the impression that turns like that would break up the phalanx but I can't see any restriction in FOG. You can march to a flank position with a phalax and turn to the side then charge in your next impact phase? Can someone more knowledgable tell me where my thinking is wrong?

Thanks

Brian

i've found that a lot can happen in the three turns that takes to happen.

march. 1 turn.

90 deg move. 1 turn.

impact. 1 turn.

by then your opponent could, and usually have, just walked off!

you're better off advancing at least one element past your the opposing BG's front edge, then charging their flank in the impact phase of your next turn. assuming again that things haven't changed.

[OldenTired]

@Lawrence, you're right, that's also one of the reasons, apart from the historical appeal, that makes me
stick to Hoplites.
I do plan to alternate with other Hoplite based armies like Kyrenean and Syracusan to
avoid the possible "deja-vu" feeling of linear deploiement. Adding some heavy chariots and elephants
from time to time should make me an happy Hoplite player

Also check out Late Dynastic Egyptians, Lydians and Late Achaemenid Persians - all of which can have lots of hoplites but also some more manouvrable troops.

i'm basing my early successors around a combined hoplite/macedonian pike centre. it also lets you have a few impact/fun troops like galatians, and tons of lancers. nice list.

[BrianC]

Is it just me or are phalanx BGs just as maneuverable as any other in that they can turn 90 deg etc in a maneuver phase? I was under the impression that turns like that would break up the phalanx but I can't see any restriction in FOG. You can march to a flank position with a phalax and turn to the side then charge in your next impact phase? Can someone more knowledgable tell me where my thinking is wrong?

Thanks

Brian

i've found that a lot can happen in the three turns that takes to happen.

march. 1 turn.

90 deg move. 1 turn.

impact. 1 turn.

by then your opponent could, and usually have, just walked off!

you're better off advancing at least one element past your the opposing BG's front edge, then charging their flank in the impact phase of your next turn. assuming again that things haven't changed.

Actually I am just asking a general question and making a general observation. I did run into a situation where a Roman battle line was engaged by hoplites and there was a spare hoplite BG to the flank it routed its opponent and pursued and was now in a position to turn and hit the Roman in the flank. There was no supporting Roman BGs nearby as they were being skirmished and otherwise pre-occupied. So there would easily have been enough time to do this.

Brian

[BrianC]

Is it just me or are phalanx BGs just as maneuverable as any other in that they can turn 90 deg etc in a maneuver phase? I was under the impression that turns like that would break up the phalanx but I can't see any restriction in FOG. You can march to a flank position with a phalax and turn to the side then charge in your next impact phase? Can someone more knowledgable tell me where my thinking is wrong?

Thanks

Brian

i've found that a lot can happen in the three turns that takes to happen.

march. 1 turn.

90 deg move. 1 turn.

impact. 1 turn.

by then your opponent could, and usually have, just walked off!

you're better off advancing at least one element past your the opposing BG's front edge, then charging their flank in the impact phase of your next turn. assuming again that things haven't changed.

And what is an element? I have been hearing people say they are moving this element or that element but I can't find it in the book. The Rules only talk about Battlegroups or bases? What am I missing?

Thanks

Brian

[lawrenceg]

And what is an element? I have been hearing people say they are moving this element or that element but I can't find it in the book. The Rules only talk about Battlegroups or bases? What am I missing?

Thanks

Brian

"Element" is an unofficial term for a "base".

(In DBA/DBM it is the official term. A lot of Foggers played those games for years before FoG was even thought of and carry the old terminology across)

[OldenTired]

Actually I am just asking a general question and making a general observation. I did run into a situation where a Roman battle line was engaged by hoplites and there was a spare hoplite BG to the flank it routed its opponent and pursued and was now in a position to turn and hit the Roman in the flank. There was no supporting Roman BGs nearby as they were being skirmished and otherwise pre-occupied. So there would easily have been enough time to do this.

Brian

if that's the case and there's room, just turn the entire BG 90, charge your next impact phase.