Intercepting a skirmisher's charge

[stevoid]

A group of skirmishers (a) have declared a charge on some enemy skirmishers (b) and as no none-skirmishers are in charge change they have not taken a CMT. Note than in the diagram below (a) and (b) are slightly offset.

Intercept moves are made and some non-skirmishers (c) interpose themselves partly in front of the chargers.

Do the chargers:
1 - Have the option to CMT to be able to charger the non-skirmishers?
2 - Stop one MU (or less if already closer) from the non-skirmishers and step-forward to contact their original target (if possible)?
3 - Wheel to avoid the non-skirmishers and hit and step-forward to contact their target? If this is allowed, is it still allowed if it contacts less bases than the original straight ahead charge would have?
4 - Their choice of 2 or 3?
5 - Do nothing, their charge is canceled?


......LhLhLh (a)
......
......
........LhLhLh (b)
........
........
CvCv (c)

The rules are clear on what happens when the target evades and skirmishers would contact revealed enemy etc but I couldn't find anything that covered this explicitly.

Cheers,

Steve

[sagji]

The correct answer is 6

6 continue their charge as planned, hit the intercepters - and probably die horribly.

[pbrandon]

OK I'll go for answer 7, they stop 1MU short of the interceptors and that's it.

3 I think is complicated as it is chicken and egg in terms of declared line of charge and then whether that means an interception charge is possible.

Paul

[stevoid]

Whoops, please note that option 2 is of course illegal.

Paul: An interception charge is possible, hence the whole thread As I understand it, the charge direction is only indicated when an evade will occur. Also note that I have phrased the question to include a straight ahead option, i.e. into the ZOI and I have also asked about a wheel where less bases might be contacted.

Option 6 would seem to contradict the rules about what skirmishers can do without a CMT and is in essence what the question is about.

Note in the game we played we had the chargers do 3, then they later conformed to the front of the target which brought the interceptors into play as an overlap. However, we were a little unsure as to what should happen with regard to the charge so hence this thread he says in hope of one of the big three answering...

Steve

[GrumblingGrognard]

#3 is it not?

If you can wheel and still make contact I would think then you must avoid the interposing enemy unit (which I would think you want to avoid anyway) and contact your intended charge victim. Note that the text states that you can NOT contract to avoid enemy troops however (only friendlies).

I don't think voiding the charge is an option at this point (not so easy to stop several hundered frothing mounts/riders I would think).

GG

[BrianC]

I would agree with GG and choose #3 as skirmishers cannot charge unbroken heavier troops in open terrain. Since the original target evaded you are still following them even though you may hit less targets then the original charge. In the current situation if you charge forward you will hit none, so in a way you will hit more if you wheel.

Hope my FOG FU is up to the challenge : ), still a yellow belt

Brian

[stevoid]

Hi Brian,

First, skirmishers, if they are LH as in this example, can charge heavier troops in the open subject to a CMT.
Second, there is no evading going on in this example!
However, I agree that 3 seems the likely legal option but still keen for clarification.

Steve

[BrianC]

Hi Steve,

Sorry I was thinking LF not LH.

Its time for bed, up too late painting Republican Roman Cavalry.

Brian

[stevoid]

Hi Steve,

Sorry I was thinking LF not LH.

Its time for bed, up too late painting Republican Roman Cavalry.

Brian

No worries. Tough army those Romans.

[rbodleyscott]

No doubt I am missing something, but isn't this covered by the FAQ? (See underlined part)

What happens if charging skirmishers are themselves intercepted by heavy troops, can they evade?

An interception or evade is a response to a charge. It is not a response to an intercept charge. Troops therefore cannot evade from interceptors.

If you charge with skirmishers and get intercepted by heavy troops then you have to fight them – after all you didn’t have to charge in the first place. Think of it that you have committed your troops to an all out charge and it is easy to see how this is different from deciding to evade from enemy when you are stationary – much harder to stop a charge and regain control and turn around and run away (like trying to stop the charge of the Light Brigade).

The reason we don't allow them to stop 1" away is because in reality the interceptors are not a stationary "target" and would carry on into them.

Note that for tournament purposes the FAQ have the force of rules, even if they appear to contradict the rule book. We are determined to keep the rules working as intended and not be held hostage to unforeseen interpretations of the wording. Non-tournament players are of course at liberty to interpret the rules any way they wish, though we do recommend following the clarifications in the FAQ.

[shall]

Yes hit the Cv and step forward into the LH if it is possible.

Note page 60 that you stop 1 MU from any charge target. So the intent was that if the Cv stayed still and were in range as a charge target you could opt to stop 1 M from them; if you charge and get intercepted you re committed (after all it was your choise General Cardigan).

Hence the FQ to clarify that.

Si

[stevoid]

Thanks guys. Haven't checked the FAQ in a while and there it is already covered Must print off before next game.

Hopefully the next version will be out soon for out nationals at Easter (hint).

Fully support your not being held hostage to what is in print approach

Option 6 it was!

Steve

[shall]

In about a week I suspect

Si

[GrumblingGrognard]

What am I missing?

I don't see anything that says you must charge strait ahead. In fact I thought (don't have rules with me at the moment) that a single wheel was allowed.

If that is the case please explain why the LH can't do a single wheel to avoid the CAV and still hit the target they are supposed to have declared for? (All of the above assumes they can still reach their declared target of course)

GG

[sagji]

The sequence of events.
When the LH declare their charge they have the option of including a single wheel - but only if it would not result in less contact. If they wheel sufficently to not cross the Cav's interception zone then the cav can't intercept.
Once they have declared their charge they don't get the option to change their path - unless all targets evade in which case then can instead persue them.
Once the cav has intercepted there is nothing the LH can do - they automatically count as charging the cav as they are in the LH's path. The LH don't get to make a CMT as they haven't declared a charge on non-lights, and they don't get to stop short as not all targets have evaded.

[stevoid]

The sequence of events.
When the LH declare their charge they have the option of including a single wheel - but only if it would not result in less contact. If they wheel sufficently to not cross the Cav's interception zone then the cav can't intercept.
Once they have declared their charge they don't get the option to change their path - unless all targets evade in which case then can instead persue them.

Hi, unless there is an upcoming FAQ I haven't seen I'm not sure where you get this. The single wheel is under the "Charging With Your Battle Groups" section, not the "Declaration of Charges" section. The only bit in the impact phase that says you need to indicate charge direction is in the "Evade Moves" section when someone is actually evading.

I think GG's question is valid. I think the authors have answered my question with one of the scenarios in mind - the one where I said that a wheel meant contacting less bases which therefore means they can't wheel. I also postulated a situation where there was room to wheel past the interceptors and hit the same number of bases.

I would have thought that if a wheel allowed them to contact the same number of bases then they can still attempt that. Nothing says you have to be intercepted if you have some wiggle room with a wheel.

Steve

[GrumblingGrognard]

The sequence of events.
When the LH declare their charge they have the option of including a single wheel - but only if it would not result in less contact. If they wheel sufficently to not cross the Cav's interception zone then the cav can't intercept.
Once they have declared their charge they don't get the option to change their path - unless all targets evade in which case then can instead persue them.

Hi, unless there is an upcoming FAQ I haven't seen I'm not sure where you get this.

I agree. More importantly (at least as I see it) no where in the rules do you declare 'the path' of your charge. You declare your charge, your target. THEN when the time comes you 'execute' your charge. If "when the time comes" you have to wheel to make contact with your charge victim, well then so be it.

I think GG's question is valid. I think the authors have answered my question with one of the scenarios in mind - the one where I said that a wheel meant contacting less bases which therefore means they can't wheel. I also postulated a situation where there was room to wheel past the interceptors and hit the same number of bases.

I would have thought that if a wheel allowed them to contact the same number of bases then they can still attempt that. Nothing says you have to be intercepted if you have some wiggle room with a wheel.

Steve

Well, I will go one further...

I am not sure "would have contacted" is relevant. I would think that the point is that 'when' you get to charge that you make contact with as many bases as possible. Otherwise you would have to know exactly how many bases would make contact if nothing changes during your opponents intercept phase. In other words we would have to basically "pre-calculate" the number of bases that will be contacted (should nothing change) when every time a charge is declared. And I don't see how that is feasible (you would have to move the unit to do so IMO). I would hope not.

GG

[stevoid]

GG - you do declare path when target evades

[GrumblingGrognard]

GG - you do declare path when target evades

Well then I should declare all of my charge paths as "They skirt the zone/max reach of this unit to avoid getting counter charged" (when possible)?

And we will need wee lengths of string to mark our charge paths (must be able to curve with a wheel remember) And... What if that means they then make contact with less than the max number of stands, but only because the 'possibly' intecepting unit does not end up intecepting...perhaps ONLY because I skirted their zone/max reach??? This way lies madness.

[shall]

All you declare is a direction ... the default being dead ahead.

... onto which you will whell when charging and away from which evaders may choose to

... just lay a measuring stick onthe table, that's common practice.

nothing mor complex or as you say we all go bonkers!

Si