Clarification Please..?
1. Here are the circumstances:
It is the Impact Phase.
1xBG Pike (2 files of 4) are in melee with 1xBG Elephants (2 bases) - all lined up nicely.
On the the Right Flank of the Pikes is a friendly BG of Galatians (2 files of 4) who have defeated another BG of Elephants (now removed) and pursued so that they are 2 base depths in front of the Pike. The Galatians currently form an overlap for the Pike.
No other BGs are in the vicinity.
a) What are the options for the Galatians in respect of 'having to charge' i.e. do they need to test etc?
b) If the enemy Elephants were a BG of Pike how would these options change?
c) In the Manoeuvre Phase, if the Galatians take a CMT to turn 90 degrees and are successful this would place them in contact with the flank of the Elephants. I believe they would still only fight as an overlap as this would not be a Flank charge? Is there any benefit in the resultant combat for the Galatians doing this? Page 57 describes these circumstances and says the 'chargers' must subsequently align with the enemy front edge - this would put the galatians back facing their original direction - apparently negating their successful turn?
Any help advice would be appreciated as this is a very common situation that will arise when opponents are broken and removed etc.
Sorry if being a bit thick.
TIA.
Regards,
Flank Charge - Sponno...?
Moderators: hammy, philqw78, terrys, Slitherine Core, Field of Glory Design, Field of Glory Moderators
Interesting.
Are they in contact with the flank as the front left corner would be in contact with flank of the elephents?
As the elephent unit is only a single rank it will be in combat to its front and therefore this contact to the flank wont count. They are in overlap position as they are and a 90 degree turn will change nothing.
What if the unit flanked was another pike unit? The two units would be in contact, the elements would not be in contact to their front.
I believe you just leave them as they are and they form an overlap adding to the mellee.
They would need to be over 1 mu away to wheel in the charge phase to bring about a flank charge.
That's my guess.
Spotter.
Are they in contact with the flank as the front left corner would be in contact with flank of the elephents?
As the elephent unit is only a single rank it will be in combat to its front and therefore this contact to the flank wont count. They are in overlap position as they are and a 90 degree turn will change nothing.
What if the unit flanked was another pike unit? The two units would be in contact, the elements would not be in contact to their front.
I believe you just leave them as they are and they form an overlap adding to the mellee.
They would need to be over 1 mu away to wheel in the charge phase to bring about a flank charge.
That's my guess.
Spotter.
-
Bugle999
- Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:16 am
- Location: London (S.E.) UK
Si...thanks for quick response...still a bit confused?
From what you say... the Galatians do not have to take any test 'Not to Charge' AND if they choose to take and pass a CMT they can turn and 'move' into contact with the Elephants flank (eventhough it does not qualify as a Flank Charge) - hopefully I've got that..?
Q1 - However is this not prevented by the last bullet on P.57 that states that contact can be made on a flank provided that it (the target presumably)was NOT already in melee to its front - in this case the Elephants were already in melee to their front so my reading is that the Galatians cannot therefore turn into contact?
Q2 - Even if you can enlighten me as to how they can turn into contact (I am sure you are right I am probably missing something).. under the same bullet later in the Para don't the Galatians have to conform to the Elephants front at the end of the melee pase thereby making them turn back the way they just successfully passed a CMT to turn from...?
Q3 - In respect of the advantages for carrying out this manoeuvre - I see that there will be extra dice over the existing overlap position in the melee phase (4 instead of 2) but why does the Elephant suffer a - POA. It cannot turn as it has no rear rank to do so and it appears to specifically mentioning NOT counting in the same Para?
This game was in 25mm so the Elephant base is deeper if this makes any difference.
Maybe you could run through each step invooved to clarify for me.
Thanks again.[/i]
From what you say... the Galatians do not have to take any test 'Not to Charge' AND if they choose to take and pass a CMT they can turn and 'move' into contact with the Elephants flank (eventhough it does not qualify as a Flank Charge) - hopefully I've got that..?
Q1 - However is this not prevented by the last bullet on P.57 that states that contact can be made on a flank provided that it (the target presumably)was NOT already in melee to its front - in this case the Elephants were already in melee to their front so my reading is that the Galatians cannot therefore turn into contact?
Q2 - Even if you can enlighten me as to how they can turn into contact (I am sure you are right I am probably missing something).. under the same bullet later in the Para don't the Galatians have to conform to the Elephants front at the end of the melee pase thereby making them turn back the way they just successfully passed a CMT to turn from...?
Q3 - In respect of the advantages for carrying out this manoeuvre - I see that there will be extra dice over the existing overlap position in the melee phase (4 instead of 2) but why does the Elephant suffer a - POA. It cannot turn as it has no rear rank to do so and it appears to specifically mentioning NOT counting in the same Para?
This game was in 25mm so the Elephant base is deeper if this makes any difference.
Maybe you could run through each step invooved to clarify for me.
Thanks again.[/i]
-
Bugle999
- Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:16 am
- Location: London (S.E.) UK
Diagram (hopefully)
..[ ]..[ ]..[PK]..[PK]
..[ ]..[ ]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[EL]..[EL]
..[G]..[G]..[EL]..[EL]
..[ ]..[ ]..[EL]..[EL]
..[ ]..[ ]..[EL]..[EL]
Pike BG (PK) facing down, side to side contact with Galatians BG [G] facing down, front edge melee with Elephant BG [EL] facing up.
Galatians are side to side contact with Elephants and currently an overlap.
Q1. We were considering whether Galatians could make a legal flank chage and if they need to take a CMT NOT to charge - if the EL were PK would this make any difference.
Q2. If Galatians choose to take a CMT and passed could they 'TURN' into contact with the flank of the Elephant?
What were the benefits..?
a) 2 extra dice in melee phase than in their existing position
b) was it a - or + POA either way?
c) Did the Elephant count as having to fight in 2 direction?
d) Does one of the Elephants turn to face the Galatians - pushing the Galatians back to make room (25mm base sizes)?
e) Any other options you can point out would be useful...?
Ta!
..[ ]..[ ]..[PK]..[PK]
..[ ]..[ ]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[PK]..[PK]
..[G]..[G]..[EL]..[EL]
..[G]..[G]..[EL]..[EL]
..[ ]..[ ]..[EL]..[EL]
..[ ]..[ ]..[EL]..[EL]
Pike BG (PK) facing down, side to side contact with Galatians BG [G] facing down, front edge melee with Elephant BG [EL] facing up.
Galatians are side to side contact with Elephants and currently an overlap.
Q1. We were considering whether Galatians could make a legal flank chage and if they need to take a CMT NOT to charge - if the EL were PK would this make any difference.
Q2. If Galatians choose to take a CMT and passed could they 'TURN' into contact with the flank of the Elephant?
What were the benefits..?
a) 2 extra dice in melee phase than in their existing position
b) was it a - or + POA either way?
c) Did the Elephant count as having to fight in 2 direction?
d) Does one of the Elephants turn to face the Galatians - pushing the Galatians back to make room (25mm base sizes)?
e) Any other options you can point out would be useful...?
Ta!
Ok much easier with the diag
It cannot contact the side edge unless it qualifies as a legal flank charge p53
They need not make a shock troop roll to charge as they are not in charge reach which is defined in the glossary as being able to make alegla charge contact. If there were other enemyto front in cahrge reach they would test.
b) was it a - or + POA either way?
Si
It can't for 2 reasons : it needs to be 1 MU away to do this, p56Q1. We were considering whether Galatians could make a legal flank chage and if they need to take a CMT NOT to charge - if the EL were PK would this make any difference.
It cannot contact the side edge unless it qualifies as a legal flank charge p53
They need not make a shock troop roll to charge as they are not in charge reach which is defined in the glossary as being able to make alegla charge contact. If there were other enemyto front in cahrge reach they would test.
Yes could do see page 76/78Q2. If Galatians choose to take a CMT and passed could they 'TURN' into contact with the flank of the Elephant?
Probably depends on exact position but likelyWhat were the benefits..?
a) 2 extra dice in melee phase than in their existing position
b) was it a - or + POA either way?
On normal factors but Galatians cannot suffer hit. If the Ele base on the edge was not engaged it would turn to face if there was room. This is a choice. If you don't turn to face therir is no -ve poa if you do there is. All defiend for you on p78
If it chooses to turn. This is different from being charged where you have to turn if you can. So if flanked by a manouvre move you can choose to turn if flanked by a charge move you have to.c) Did the Elephant count as having to fight in 2 direction? If the target BG turns to face
d) Does one of the Elephants turn to face the Galatians - pushing the Galatians back to make room (25mm base sizes)?
It can move away if it wishes. Were there anything better to do. It might be able to contract away and get in a position for flnak charge properly the next time. But voerall 90 turn looks the best option to me. The extra dice should be telling.e) Any other options you can point out would be useful...?
Si