Shooting over terrain and EL in terrain

[mceochaidh]

page 140 - Visibility Effects states that "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above." I believe this refers to the chart on page 139. On that chart, only in the case of Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest does the text specifically say that troops beyond cannot be seen. Each terrain type has a specific discussion of troops that can be seen when IN the terrain. For example, for Vineyards, LF wholly inside are only visible within 4 MUs. Does this also mean that troops BEHIND a Vineyard (or Village or Gully or any other terrain except for Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest) cannot be seen by enemy directly on the other side of the vineyard and such troops also cannot shoot OVER the Vineyard?

Page 141 - Disorder Effects. "Lost combat dice for DISORDER and SEVERE DISORDER are not cumulative with dice loss for DISRUPTION and FRAGMENTATION. Only one state applies - whichever is worse. A BG of 2 El charge a BG of 4 CV in 2 ranks in Brush, so would both count as disordered? EL would use 4 dice for impact and CV would use 3 dice? EL would count +POA, so hit on 4,5,6 and CV would hit on 5,6. Lets say the result of impact is that EL cause 2 hits on CV and CV cause 1 hit on EL.

CV must take cohesion test and fail. Do they then become disrupted and disordered? CV passes death roll. In melee phase, assuming CV are still, effectively, disordered, they still get 3 dice and EL get 3 dice due to disorder. EL are still +POA, but roll down and get 1 hit. CV roll up and get 3 hits. EL must test and lose. They become disrupted and disordered. They must take death roll and if they roll a 1 or 2, they remove a base and auto rout. Is all of this correct?

[petedalby]

page 140 - Visibility Effects states that "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above." I believe this refers to the chart on page 139. On that chart, only in the case of Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest does the text specifically say that troops beyond cannot be seen. Each terrain type has a specific discussion of troops that can be seen when IN the terrain. For example, for Vineyards, LF wholly inside are only visible within 4 MUs. Does this also mean that troops BEHIND a Vineyard (or Village or Gully or any other terrain except for Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest) cannot be seen by enemy directly on the other side of the vineyard and such troops also cannot shoot OVER the Vineyard?

As far as I am aware, if a terrain piece provides cover to any/all troop types, it cannot be shot over / through - the only exception to that is a gully since that is a depression in the ground. So LF in a vineyard are only visible within 4 MU - all other troop types are visible so can be shot in or over the vineyard.

The only wrinkle I've seen with this is where an Impassable feature can be defined as a quarry, lake or extremely steep hill - and the visibility effects are therefore different.

Is all of this correct?

If I have followed it correctly - I believe so - yes. Disorder and disruption are different states but there is no cumulative effect for combat.

[philqw78]

page 140 - Visibility Effects states that "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above." I believe this refers to the chart on page 139. On that chart, only in the case of Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest does the text specifically say that troops beyond cannot be seen. Each terrain type has a specific discussion of troops that can be seen when IN the terrain. For example, for Vineyards, LF wholly inside are only visible within 4 MUs. Does this also mean that troops BEHIND a Vineyard (or Village or Gully or any other terrain except for Plantations, Hill Crests and Forest) cannot be seen by enemy directly on the other side of the vineyard and such troops also cannot shoot OVER the Vineyard?

It says wholly inside. If they are not inside they can be seen and shot at. This means if a forest is 4MU deep enemy on the other side can be seen and shot if in range

This is taking the rules wholly literally, which appears to be in vogue at the moment.

[grahambriggs]

Page 141 - Disorder Effects. "Lost combat dice for DISORDER and SEVERE DISORDER are not cumulative with dice loss for DISRUPTION and FRAGMENTATION. Only one state applies - whichever is worse. A BG of 2 El charge a BG of 4 CV in 2 ranks in Brush, so would both count as disordered? EL would use 4 dice for impact and CV would use 3 dice? EL would count +POA, so hit on 4,5,6 and CV would hit on 5,6. Lets say the result of impact is that EL cause 2 hits on CV and CV cause 1 hit on EL.

CV must take cohesion test and fail. Do they then become disrupted and disordered? CV passes death roll. In melee phase, assuming CV are still, effectively, disordered, they still get 3 dice and EL get 3 dice due to disorder. EL are still +POA, but roll down and get 1 hit. CV roll up and get 3 hits. EL must test and lose. They become disrupted and disordered. They must take death roll and if they roll a 1 or 2, they remove a base and auto rout. Is all of this correct?

Yes, all correct.

[dave_r]

Page 141 - Disorder Effects. "Lost combat dice for DISORDER and SEVERE DISORDER are not cumulative with dice loss for DISRUPTION and FRAGMENTATION. Only one state applies - whichever is worse. A BG of 2 El charge a BG of 4 CV in 2 ranks in Brush, so would both count as disordered? EL would use 4 dice for impact and CV would use 3 dice? EL would count +POA, so hit on 4,5,6 and CV would hit on 5,6. Lets say the result of impact is that EL cause 2 hits on CV and CV cause 1 hit on EL.

CV must take cohesion test and fail. Do they then become disrupted and disordered? CV passes death roll. In melee phase, assuming CV are still, effectively, disordered, they still get 3 dice and EL get 3 dice due to disorder. EL are still +POA, but roll down and get 1 hit. CV roll up and get 3 hits. EL must test and lose. They become disrupted and disordered. They must take death roll and if they roll a 1 or 2, they remove a base and auto rout. Is all of this correct?

Yes, all correct.

Apart from the number of dice the elephants get? Are elephants disordered in brush?

[mceochaidh]

According to page 40 EL disordered in rough and brush counts as rough.

Still confused by visibility comment concerning Forest. A BG of LF archers is lined up facing Forest. Enemy LH archers are directly opposite on the other side of forest facing LF archers. Forest is 5 MU wide and neither unit frontage extends past forest. Can LF archers shoot at LH through forest or plantation, even though it states on page 139 that they are not visible? Page 139 states that "Troops wholly inside (forest) are only visible within 2 MUs." So how could they be visible on the other side of the forest? In the case of Plantation, troops beyond cannot be seen, however troops inside are only visible within 4 MUs. So I presume this means that if the Plantation is 3 MU wide, then LF moving up to within 4 MUs of enemy LH beyond Plantation can see and shoot at such LH. They can also shoot in 2 ranks because they are not in the Plantation.

What if the same scenario above is a Village instead of forest? The LF archers march up to Village 5 MU wide. Enemy LH archers are beyond village less than 6 MU away. There is no language that says troops beyond a village cannot be seen, so I presume that LF can see and shoot at the LH. However, if the LF were in the village, they still can shoot but only with one rank. If they do shoot, then the LF are revealed and the LH can shoot back but the LF count as "in cover" so -POA.

Have I got it right?

[petedalby]

This means if a forest is 4MU deep enemy on the other side can be seen and shot if in range

I don't believe this is correct Phil.

Page 139 - "Troops beyond a forest cannot be seen."

Page 140 - "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above."

I'm struggling to understand how this can be ambiguous....

So troops wholly inside a Village are only visible and a target to be shot at within 2 MUs. Beyond 2 MUs the Village blocks line of sight. Therefore troops beyond a Village cannot be seen or shot at. (unless the shooters are within 2 MU of the edge of the Village)

Remember that visibility and the descriptions affect ambushes as well as shooting Mac - hopefully that is where your confusion is coming from.

[philqw78]

I was struggling with work at the time so am almost certainly wrong. Thanks for reading the rules and explaining for me Pete

[petedalby]

Just trying to help....