Second rank bases in melee

[rtaylor]

In melee, if a second-rank base is different from the front-rank base, does it calculate its PoA based on its own characteristics or on those of the front-rank base?

Example: A spear block with two ranks HF, protected, spear; and a third rank LF, unprotected, bow. Death rolls kills two spear bases, and now two LF bases are in the second rank. Obviously, two front-rank bases no longer have the PoA for two ranks of spearmen, but what about the LF? Do the LF bases fight as if they were LF vs. the enemy front rank (lousy PoA + lose 1 dice per 2 LF), or are they considered protected HF for this purpose?

[hammy]

Second rank bases use the same POA as the front rank.

P94 Scoring hits 5th bullet point

[carlos]

Same PoA as front rank but only the dice they'd roll themselves, so LF in 2nd rank lose 1 dice per 2 stands (that means round up btw!)

[shall]

no it means lose 1 dice per 2.

Otherwise its halve round up what you have left.....

or halve round down for what you take away.....

So up or down depending on yourpoint of view!

Hence the literal version is better as its the same whichever way you look at it... QED

Si

[rtaylor]

Thank you all.

[Scrumpy]

So in our game last night, my Danish -- HW HW / XB -- Sw armed troops should have fought as HW then ?

Even better !

What happens though when that unit suffers casualties say in the impact phase, can I remove either a XB or HW base ? If I have to remove the HW base, does the XB now filling in fight as Xb -- Sw v his opponent, or as the majoruity fo the front rank ?

Cheers

[carlos]

Yes, it only gets ugly when you start to lose front-rankers and the rear rank has to fight. Of course by then you're probably dead!

[hammy]

So in our game last night, my Danish -- HW HW / XB -- Sw armed troops should have fought as HW then ?

Even better !

What happens though when that unit suffers casualties say in the impact phase, can I remove either a XB or HW base ? If I have to remove the HW base, does the XB now filling in fight as Xb -- Sw v his opponent, or as the majoruity fo the front rank ?

Cheers

Losses must be taken from the front rank and if you are fighting more than one BG they must be removed from a front rank facing the BG that did the most hits. Lost front rank bases must if possible be replaced by rear rank bases.

When you have a mixed front rank or mixed numbers of supporting ranks (single ranked spear, only 3 ranks of pike etc.) then you will get different POAs for each file and potentially have to make different numbers to hit and be hit for each. In practice it rarely makes much difference but it can swing things.

[Scrumpy]

Yeah, that is the way I called it in a recent game. Nice to know I got it right.

[OldenTired]

just read this thread looking for an answer to another question.

some HF supported by LF are fighting two battlegroups. so, the HF are killed in melee, and the LF step forward. no worries.

but what if the LF, which is fighting on bad POAs is killed by the enemy. surely it has to be removed, and there is nothing to step forward. this would create a hole in the battlegroup, and an illegal formation.

i'm presuming you'd constrict the frontage by removing the elements on the outside of the melee first, meaning the BG never splits in two?

[Ghaznavid]

Assuming you have more then a single element LF in the back of your BG, another of these would step forward. It doesn't have to be directly behind the element that was killed in order to fill the void. You start contracting the unit only if you have no more elements left that aren't already fighting. (See p. 116)

[hammy]

To be honest normally when things get so bad you have no rear rank bases to fill holes you have autobroken anyway. If you are still allive and have so many bases fighting that you can't replace a loss then IIRC you just lose a base in contact and don't replace it but you can't as a reault split your BG.

[OldenTired]

ah... got it.

i didn't realise that any other back rank element could step into the gap.

thx.

[OldenTired]

and yes, that was a page of the rules i skim-read