Impact Phase - Stepping Forward

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:50 am

Sorry for another newbie question. But I just like to clarify as much as possible rather than assume or guess.

I am hoping for some clarification regarding Stepping Forward during the Impact Phase. The rules say that all front rank bases must be in contact with an enemy base in order to step forward. What happens if one file is in overlap or there is another file that will not contact at all? I take the rules to mean that you cannot charge that enemy unit until you maneuver your BG in such a way that you hit them direct frontally or you contract enough so that all front bases contact and enemy base. An example would be a BG of 8 vs a BG of say 2 or even 4. The way I read the rules the only way for me to charge them is to contract my formation.

The example on page 167 shows a BG of 4 bases hitting on an angle and at the end only having 2 bases in contact. What if the charging BG had the base on its right flank on its left instead? If it charged and it could not step forward due to having to move > 2 MU's what would happen? Could it not charge?

Also could someone explain the reasoning if the answer is that they cannot charge?

I am re reading the rules again and this came up when I read the impact section and thought I would ask here.

Again, sorry for the newbie question. Just trying to learn the nuances of the game. I can just honestly see this coming up in a future game real soon : ),

Brian

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:14 am

What it is supposed to mean is:

You can charge as long as at least one base makes contact. Not all bases need to make contact.

When the first base makes contact, the whole BG stops there in formation.

THEN

Some bases may be able to move forward some more, as these rules call it: "step forward" from their proper position in the BG.

All files that step forward must contact the enemy. (plus obey the other restrictions)

Files that would not contact enemy do not step forward, so you end up with your formation messed up. This is supposed to happen and is no disadvantage. It allows you to get more bases into combat when you charge at a funny angle.

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:28 am

Charging and stepping forward are separate stages in the process of making contact inthe impact phase.

You can "charge" if you can gt any base to contact and enemy BG somehow with its front edge or corner.

Thereafter you "step forward" if any file either side of those in physical contact can contact enemy bases by so doing. Keep going along your BG until you get a file that cannot do so without breaking other restrictions.

Si

Spotter · Post by **Spotter** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:46 pm

On page 62 the outline shows the roman unit's right hand elements stepping forward - surely , having read above, this element should have stopped inline with the middle one as it cannot make contact with the enemy BG?

I realise that it is only a what if but I think it's wrong.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:12 pm

Spotter wrote:On page 62 the outline shows the roman unit's right hand elements stepping forward - surely , having read above, this element should have stopped inline with the middle one as it cannot make contact with the enemy BG?

I realise that it is only a what if but I think it's wrong.

It does show the outline but the text says that the Romans cannot contact the cavalry by stepping forwards so the cavalry are allowed to intercept. It is not showing the final possition of the Romans if there is no intercept charge, just showing that a maximum step forwards isn't enough to contact. The Right hand base would remain in line with the rest of the BG if there was no interception or other BG present.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:35 pm

Here are a couple of pics to show what I had in mind.

I assume that both of the examples are illegal if I understand the rules because there is one file in each situation where it is not contacting an enemy base, it is only there to maintain BG integrity. Is that correct? On the surface it seems perfectly ok to engage the enemy as below. I just perhaps, don't udnerstand the underlying meaning.

davem · Post by **davem** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:35 pm

lawrenceg wrote:What it is supposed to mean is:

You can charge as long as at least one base makes contact. Not all bases need to make contact.

When the first base makes contact, the whole BG stops there in formation.

THEN

Some bases may be able to move forward some more, as these rules call it: "step forward" from their proper position in the BG.

All files that step forward must contact the enemy. (plus obey the other restrictions)

Files that would not contact enemy do not step forward, so you end up with your formation messed up. This is supposed to happen and is no disadvantage. It allows you to get more bases into combat when you charge at a funny angle.

So is it possible for some files to _not_ step forward if they'd contact an opponent they don't want to fight, but for their mates on either side to do so if the opponent is "juicier"? I appreciate they still have to comply with the rules for remaining in contact with their BG.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:42 am

davem wrote:
lawrenceg wrote:What it is supposed to mean is:

You can charge as long as at least one base makes contact. Not all bases need to make contact.

When the first base makes contact, the whole BG stops there in formation.

THEN

Some bases may be able to move forward some more, as these rules call it: "step forward" from their proper position in the BG.

All files that step forward must contact the enemy. (plus obey the other restrictions)

Files that would not contact enemy do not step forward, so you end up with your formation messed up. This is supposed to happen and is no disadvantage. It allows you to get more bases into combat when you charge at a funny angle.
So is it possible for some files to _not_ step forward if they'd contact an opponent they don't want to fight, but for their mates on either side to do so if the opponent is "juicier"? I appreciate they still have to comply with the rules for remaining in contact with their BG.

I don't have the rules with me, but IIRC the step forward is compulsory if it is possible. I'm sure it is in there somewhere.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:14 am

I don't have the rules with me, but IIRC the step forward is compulsory if it is possible. I'm sure it is in there somewhere.

It is you are quite correct. The principle of a press forward is to be a realistic simulation of troops flowing forward to combat once told to engage, not some sort of option.

Si

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:23 am

Brian,

Looking at your two pictures you are right in that they are both illegal.

In the first picture the file on the left should have stopped at the first line of contact. Interestingly the way I have normally played is the way you have moved the bases here but according to the rules the left most file should not step forwards.

In the second picture the second file from the left should not have stepped forwards which I think means that the leftmost file would have to step forwards more than the depth of the file to hit the second battlegroup so again it is an illegal move.

Si,

What do you think?

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:29 am

Both diagrams are incorrect - however in both cases they can be corrected by moving the non-contacting file back to the position at first contact. I don't believe that this prevents the other files from contacting the enemy - you only need corner to corner contact.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:27 pm

Thanks for the further clarification guys, I took 2 pics of what they can do legally.

This is how I think you guys are saying it should be. And I know it looks too far in the first pic but if the left most base was to step forward it could just have corner to corner contact.

Brian

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:03 pm

My opinion is that (of the original pictures).
(1) Is correct
(2) Is incorrect

I think we should have added the following to the definitions for stepping forwards.

>> A base it is not considered to be stepped forwards if ends level with both (or the only) adjacent front rank bases of it's own battlegroup.

You then get the true definition of what was intended.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:15 pm

terrys wrote:My opinion is that (of the original pictures).
(1) Is correct
(2) Is incorrect

I think we should have added the following to the definitions for stepping forwards.

>> A base it is not considered to be stepped forwards if ends level with both (or the only) adjacent front rank bases of it's own battlegroup.

You then get the true definition of what was intended.

I assume you mean the first set of picture Terry.

I tend to agree with you though and would have played that the whole line steps up with the bases stepping forwards but the rules don't actually say this

To be honest most of the time it makes no difference anyway as the chargers conform in the movement phase.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:19 pm

Thanks for the catch, I changed the pic

I agree Hammy that was how I would have felt it would have worked. Every one itching to get into it so to speak. Then conform after the initial rush in the maneuver phase.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:38 pm

Yes i think we may FAQ that one in FAQ 3.0

Si

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:49 pm

Yes i think we may FAQ that one in FAQ 3.0

We definately will.

I've always assumed that a base isn't stepped forwards if it's level with its neighbors, but can easily see how it could be interpreted differently

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:12 pm

yep me too in any games

Si

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:45 pm

I can see 5 different ways of doing it.
1 Push forward those that will contact enemy, others don't move.

2 working outward from the point of contact push a base forward to contact, or to match previous base.

3 Push forward those that will contact enemy, then push forward any others the minimum to line up with a neighbour.

4 Push forward those that will contact enemy, then push forward any others the minimum to line up with a neighbour or to be in contact with both neighbours if greater.

5 Push forward those that will contact enemy, push others the minimum to be in contact with both neighbours.