Beta first impressions

[duckEfuzz]

Hi,

Well I've installed and ran the game for probably 2 hrs now over a few sittings. Initially I've got to say I'm disappointed.
I've probably played most of the GW tabletop games over the many years and despite not having played them for well over 10 Years have substituted them for a wide and varied PC game collection, most of which are strategy titles, inc of course, Panzer Corps.
I love Panzer Corps, I get really excited to see GW titles ported to PC, I get very excited to see Epic(or 40k depending on your slant) coming to the PC. SO why am I feeling disappointed....
I think its because I found myself playing Panzer Corps with Epic 40k sprites, and to be honest I think I prefer that game engine played out on the battlefields of ww2.

So I sat and pondered, why am I not more thrilled to have my Epic armies on my PC. What could I say to the dev's about what I would have done had I had the capabilities and funds to make this game myself, what is it that its missing.
And you know after much pondering I think what I really wanted was to feel personally attached to my units.
Part of the great joy that came from those years of tabletop gaming is the careful selection of finely tuned units, the altering of models to represent the choices you've made. That's what I think I wanted from this game. I needed the chance to alter the stat's of the various units, more Armour pen needed, no problem. Can I show my custom unit graphically on the screen, of course I can! Now that gets me excited.

Does making this happen make the game too much like the tabletop version and bring down the inevitable wrath of the GW license commissars? could be.

But if there's any chance we could have an opening screen of units to pick, fine tuning to be made to stats, special abilities to be added, snazzy decals to show my elite units on screen, then please, please make that happen.

Apologies if that's all in the pipeline and I've missed a massive part of the game due to lack of time spent playing! (normally I trawl through the manuals to get the full low down before I start..... its a habit from my even earlier Advanced D+D days.)

It is a good game, that I know. Hopefully the more I play, the more it will shine and I'll end up leaving my Sherman's back at the depot.

Cheers.

[Rudankort]

Thanks for feedback, very useful. We realize that all our players are different, and it is difficult to appeal to everybody, but still it is important to know what problems exactly people have with our game. Was there any PC game set in Warhammer 40k universe which you think did it right?

Otherwise, some things on your wish list are likely to appear in the series at some point, but not all of them.

[duckEfuzz]

Thanks Rudankort,

To be honest I don't think there has been a PC 40k game that has got it right yet. I suppose I could see the appeal of Dawn of war because it did have that customisable element in how you arranged squads with equipment and even could customise your paint scheme which kept the units feeling quite personal. only trouble is I'm not a RTS player in general, preferring a more sedate turn based, deeper thinking style game. Nevertheless I did enjoy an occasional look at that game mainly for the reason it did give me that same 'my army' feel as I had when I used to tabletop.
I was thinking today that maybe just the ability to be able to completely construct your army before a campaign would give it a more personal touch, I realise it may make the various scenarios difficult to balance but that could be a caveat placed before starting a campaign that way, and I'm presuming the points values of each unit has been worked out already for the purchasing screen so maybe that would be easy to implement? says he who has no clue on coding!

Anyway I'll continue to enjoy playing and let you know any bugs I find and of course letting you know how I'm enjoying the more subtle nuances of the different play style from Panzer Corps.

Thanks again.

[Galdred]

To be honest I don't think there has been a PC 40k game that has got it right yet.

I don't agree with this statement : The older SSI games managed to get 40K IMO :
Here is what I think about each one's strong points and shortcoming.

- Chaos Gate
I think it was the most atmospheric, because of the scope ( you are leading individual marines at the skirmish level, kind of like in X-Com, without the strategic layer) and the soundtrack. I think it is the only game that conveys the sheer power of a Space Marine ( they die by the hundreds in Dawn of War for instance, which does not make them worthy of their fluff). The Mighty Hero difficulty (aka ironman) also made it very emotional, as you could lose one of your cherished battle brothers. The game system, although not as good as Jagged Alliance (burst fire was goofy, the UI was a bit cumbersome) was the best of the 3 SSI games.
It had a few shortcomings :
- Low replayability (it is a set of fixed campaign missions).
- Low variety of opponents : cultists, Word Bearers, Khorne Berserkers, Psykers, chaos Terminators, chaos hounds, Tzeench horrors, Khorne hounds, and 1 or 2 major demons
- It had some technical issues ( corrupted saves)
Overall, I think it was the best 40K game made before, and is still one of my prefered games(but I really like skirmish scale games).

- Final Liberation
Steel Panthers meets epic 40K. This should have been a winner, and the cinematic cutscene with real actors were memorable, but the game suffered from an overly simplified game system (compared to Steel Panthers) :
- removal of hexes for square tiles (which brought the issue of diagonal moves).
- simplified LoS and detection mechanisms (every unit in LoS is detected).
- simplified penetration and combat model ( no more immobilized units for instance, so damage is either nothing or unit destroyed, except for titans and super heavies)
- accuracy did not depend on range, only on cover and unit stat
-AI was pretty bad iirc.
- What was imbalanced in epic was also imbalanced there (deathstrike missiles and titans).
So basically, the system was much more simplistic than Steel Panthers. The game was still fun, though, and managed to capture the feel of TT epic .

- Rites of War
I consider this one to be the weakest of the SSI games. It was still fun, but it didn't caputre much of the 40k feel :
-it was too abstract, and thus not to different from the other Panzer General variations
- The feeling of abstraction was reinforced by the lack of scale elements ( it played as if 1 unit = 1 squad or 1 vehicle or 1 hero, but I feel Panzer General does not work too well for this scale as the mechanisms are too abstract).
- This made the game feel quite puzzly (while the other two were "free flowing")
I liked the character/squad progression, though, and I am surprised not to see it there (ie no perk to select for experienced units).
Overall, it was still an enjoyable game, but it felt more like Fantasy General with a 40K reskin than a proper representation of 40k warfare, unlike its 2 older brothers.

Armageddon is closest from Rites of War. I think the overall system is better in Armageddon ( resting to replenish strength was akward, and made heroes and vehicles too powerful), and the game feels less abstract(it feels closer to John Tiller's campaign series), because of the way weapons are represented, and because it is easier to grasp the scale of the terrain and units. So it feels closer from 40k, but the Panzer Corps roots are still very visible (retaliation and supporting mechanisms, reinforcements, short ranges and small maps that make "traffic jams" pretty frequent), so it feels halfway between a tactical game (ie with a "simulationnits approach") and an abstract game. I also really welcome the more varied victory conditions.
I think it makes the 40k feeling harder to convey than in a purely tacticalgame (ie Chaos Gate and Final Liberation).

[duckEfuzz]

Just an update,

I'm really liking the upgrade screen pre scenario. Effectively it enables you to fine tune your force which makes your army feel personal. Also I'm really impressed with the sheer quantity of different units.
I think because you can restart a scenario and effectively re-pick units then the difficulty/number of enemy can be really ramped up. (possibly)

Cheers.

[zakblood]

for me just an idea mind you would be to get rid of the pre selected units battles altogether and let you pick in all of them which units you wish to take, goes for scenarios and campaigns