IS THIS NORMAL ????

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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Sennacherib
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IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

I play a few game and i find some situation really ridiculous....

- ART shoot trough formed FRIENDLY troop or with impossible line of sight
- light troops do not interpenetrated and made silly evading move.....
- light troops evade when in favorable position ( higher ground, woods, BUA, flanked by formed friends) against other light troops.....
- heavy lancers on the open are stopped by light troops in close combat for several turns..... SOMETIME THEY LOOSE COMBAT !!!!!
- some scenario are impossible to win, so OK it's historical but where is the interest ???

Hope that you will correct these problems for have a better game experience !!! 8)
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

Sennacherib wrote:- ART shoot trough formed FRIENDLY troop or with impossible line of sight
There were usually substantial gaps between units in this period when they were in chequerboard formation, although this is not obvious on the map because we did not want to make the unit models smaller. The game therefore allows LOS diagonally between units. This mostly works as intended, but there are occasional anomalous situations.
- light troops do not interpenetrated and made silly evading move.....
I think it would be more anomalous in this period if they did interpenetrate, as opposed to passing through the gaps between units.
- light troops evade when in favorable position ( higher ground, woods, BUA, flanked by formed friends) against other light troops.....
Previously there were complaints that light troops were too prone to standing. They now have to have a slight advantage to stand unless they are likely to be caught. They don't have an advantage against similar troops in non-open terrain - they do against heavy troops.
- heavy lancers on the open are stopped by light troops in close combat for several turns..... SOMETIME THEY LOOSE COMBAT !!!!!
This will be a rare event in open terrain. Are you sure the light troops weren't in Rough Going - because of autoedging it can sometimes be easy to miss unless you mouse over the tile. If they do stand you can assume that their weight of fire has given the attacker pause.
- some scenario are impossible to win, so OK it's historical but where is the interest ???
All of the scenarios are possible to win. Some are very hard.
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Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

Ok, it don't work for light troops, here two exemple:

- one light cavalry "jinetes" on higher ground flanked by two lancers, i'm charge by one light cavalry with lance, i flee, they pass trough the two lancers WTF ???
- one light inf in wood flanked by table edge and another Li in BUA, charge by light crossbowmens, i flee out of the table..... wtf ???

for the knight i charge LI in the rear !!! they become disrupt and make a draw in closed combat for several turns........
light inf in the open must be riden down by formed mounted !!! they stand enough time for being charge in the rear by other ennemy ......

i will understand that Light flee if attacked by formed troops in the open but by other light of the same type in a normal situation this is a nonsense.....
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

Sennacherib wrote:Ok, it don't work for light troops, here two exemple:

- one light cavalry "jinetes" on higher ground flanked by two lancers, i'm charge by one light cavalry with lance, i flee, they pass trough the two lancers WTF ???
- one light inf in wood flanked by table edge and another Li in BUA, charge by light crossbowmens, i flee out of the table..... wtf ???

for the knight i charge LI in the rear !!! they become disrupt and make a draw in closed combat for several turns........
light inf in the open must be riden down by formed mounted !!! they stand enough time for being charge in the rear by other enemy ......

i will understand that Light flee if attacked by formed troops in the open but by other light of the same type in a normal situation this is a nonsense.....
Thanks for the points you have raised. We are always looking to improve the realism of the game. We will see about tweaking the rules in the direction you suggest.

Possible tweaks might be:

1) Light foot charged by light foot and light horse charged by light horse stand unless significantly disadvantaged (rather than requiring a slight advantage as they do at present if the enemy are far enough away that they can easily outdistance the charge).
2) Evaders who cannot enter the square directly away from the charging enemy have a deduction from their move (to account for the require turn) - this will make them much more likely to be caught.
3) Further reduce the survivability of light troops in the open vs heavy troops - this will need some thought and play-testing of whatever tweak we might introduce. (Following other feedback, we have already made artillery easier to overrun for the first patch).

Note that when light troops are charged, in deciding whether to evade, they take into account not only the troops charging them, but also other troops who could charge them in the same turn. This is to stop the "gamey" tactic of attacking light troops with light troops, they stupidly stand, and then you attack them with the heavy troops lurking ready to pounce.
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Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

Ok thanks !!! i prefer this game compared to FOG , graphism are "better" !!! :lol:

one more thing, in the impossible battle "seminara", it seem that the Stream have no effect, the swiss have always they're advantage again spanish heavy foot defending the Stream..... the pikeman do not have to be disorganized ???

I will continue to play and made some reasonnable enquiries !!! 8)
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

Sennacherib wrote:one more thing, in the impossible battle "seminara", it seem that the Stream have no effect, the swiss have always they're advantage again spanish heavy foot defending the Stream..... the pikeman do not have to be disorganized ???
It was a very small stream and did not have any significant effect in the real battle. The only effect it has in game is to negate "open terrain" POAs.

Larger streams in other scenarios have more significant effects.

The game has three grade of stream called:

1) Stream - negates "open terrain" but has no other effect.
2) Large Stream - counts as Rough terrain for the troops crossing it (i.e. in the square containing the stream) (e.g. Fornovo)
3) Deep Stream - counts as Difficult terrain for the troops crossing it. (e.g. Lutter)

There is no persistent disorder, so to defend the stream the defenders have to stand in the square immediately behind the stream square, so that the enemy unit is still in the stream. Also the defenders should not attack the unit that is in the stream, otherwise they suffer the same disorder penalty.

In addition of course, there are "Rivers" which are deemed to be those rivers large enough not to be crossable by units except at a bridge or ford.
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rbodleyscott
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

I should note that when we do make tweaks, our general policy is to avoid over-shooting the mark. If the tweak proves after extensive testing to be still insufficient, we can always tweak it some more. This is safer than risking breaking the system entirely, less disconcerting for players than flipping rules back and forth, and easy enough to do for computer games.
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Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

two things i feel wyrd but maybe normal, pikeman who fall back after loosing combat against other heavy foot and formed infantry who follow mounted and light troops routing..... seeing block of pikeman running like chicken seem strange....
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

Sennacherib wrote:two things i feel wyrd but maybe normal, pikeman who fall back after loosing combat against other heavy foot
They can only break off from non-shock troops, so they won't break off from other pikes. It was normal in the period for units to fall back out of close combat "as if by mutual consent".
formed infantry who follow mounted
They only have a 20% chance of doing so, and then only if the mounted don't break off first. Troops do strange things in the heat of battle - I know it is out of the period, but consider the Saxon foot at the Battle of Hastings, pursuing Norman cavalry and hence getting out of position and losing the battle.
formed infantry who follow light troops routing
They do at present. This is worth thinking about.
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Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

I replay Novarra, the battle where i find so many wyrd things and this time it was worst !!!! :D

- you give me your explication for artillery but once again it is impossible to have such precision when you fire and there is three friendly units in front of the target !!! even in Napoleonic era it was impossible.....
- rout move are silly !!! you rout on enemy line or you move one turn in a direction and step back the other turn.....
- this time a routing unit rallied surround by ennemy !!! incredible !!!! they attacked me in the rear after two turn of Lucky rallying dice roll....
- i was already schocked by one unit in poursuit passing behind two formed unit without problem ignoring my ZOC and stop they're movement behind my battle line.... attacking me from the rear on following turn.....

The good new is that i won my first battle at Fornovo for my second attempt !!!! seminara three defeats, do you win it one time ??? 8)
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

The program assumes that routers and pursuers are intent on the pursuit and hence have "tunnel vision" so ignore enemy ZOCs. The enemy take time to react as the routers and pursuers race past, so cannot intervene until their next turn. There are plenty of historical accounts of multiple units being swept away by a rout, and flank or rear attacks by pursuers is one of the ways this is simulated in the game.

Routers attempt to initially rout as close as possible to directly away from the unit that finally broke them. Later in the rout they will change direction to avoid moving closer to other enemy units. The men are in a panic. They are not retreating in a specific direction under orders. The phrase "running around like headless chickens" springs to mind.

It is true that the Seminara scenario is very hard for the first scenario in a set, but we wanted to keep the scenarios in chronological order. We did not do this for Edgehill because it was such a large battle.
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Nemo84
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Nemo84 »

rbodleyscott wrote:The program assumes that routers and pursuers are intent on the pursuit and hence have "tunnel vision" so ignore enemy ZOCs. The enemy take time to react as the routers and pursuers race past, so cannot intervene until their next turn. There are plenty of historical accounts of multiple units being swept away by a rout, and flank or rear attacks by pursuers is one of the ways this is simulated in the game.
The idea behind this is good, but the implementation is far too excessive. If my unit routs or evades from an enemy unit and has a second friendly unengaged unit facing the correct direction sitting in the hex next to it and with sufficient speed to make an interception realistic, that unit should have a very good chance of ZOC interdicting the enemy pursuit if that enemy unit would normally be classed as its priority target (or whatever that mechanic is called) at the point of charge impact before the whole chain of events started.

To give an example: the idea that a cavalry unit tasked with protecting a unit of musketeers would just sit by idly while an enemy cavalry unit approaches from long distance and charges through the musketeers into the friendly rear is just absurd and far more unrealistic and unhistorical than the alternative. One could even make a very strong argument that a shock cavalry unit should have a chance to counter-charge the enemy before their charge even hits the musketeers if the enemy charged from long distance. The only reason this unrealistic chain of events is possible is due to the limitations inherent to the IGoUGo turn-based system, and the ZOC mechanic is exactly designed to counter such limitations.
Routers attempt to initially rout as close as possible to directly away from the unit that finally broke them. Later in the rout they will change direction to avoid moving closer to other enemy units. The men are in a panic. They are not retreating in a specific direction under orders. The phrase "running around like headless chickens" springs to mind.
Which would not be a problem if my own army could at least somewhat realistically limit the movement of their pursuers with clever tactics and deployment. Right now, a cavalry unit on pursuit can cross through two or even three successive lines of cavalry units with absolutely no hindrance. I challenge you to find historical accounts of this happening with regularity. As it is now, a pursued rout is basically a dice roll. If you win the dice roll, the enemy unit ends up in a crappy position and is easily routed itself the next turn. If you lose the roll, you could find your entire army outflanked and have pretty much just lost the battle. The fact that there is nothing the player can do to influence this dice roll makes it a pretty bad gameplay mechanic.
It is true that the Seminara scenario is very hard for the first scenario in a set, but we wanted to keep the scenarios in chronological order. We did not do this for Edgehill because it was such a large battle.
I'm not sure this was a smart decision, if you ever hope to reach an audience outside of hardcore 16th century wargamers. Maybe some indication with each battle on its difficulty level and a tutorial popup for new players to explain this would improve accessibility of the title. Or just make the battles playable from both sides, so newcomers can at least learn the game first by winning with the advantaged side (which can already be quite challenging for new players).

In general though I find the difficulty of many of the scenarios have crossed the line from "challenging" to "frustrating and unfun". We are expected to win battles that were historically lost, against vastly superior forces, with some added ahistorical difficulty by the scenario designer. I find my victories depend more on endless repetition to get lucky dice rolls and exploits of AI limitations than actual good tactics and strategy. There are good reasons many of these battles were historically lost, but the game forces us to remake many of the historical mistakes that lead to defeat. It would already remove a lot of frustration on my part if the game at least did not force me each time into the same crappy deployment and troop selection that historically lost the battle.
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by nikgaukroger »

I'll not comment on design issues, Richard is more than able to do that :wink: but I feel moved to comment on this.
Nemo84 wrote: I find my victories depend more on endless repetition to get lucky dice rolls and exploits of AI limitations than actual good tactics and strategy.
Certainly not my experience. I've found that victory has been largely driven by tactics and an understanding of how the different troops interact - waiting for the luck to run your way is a poor substitute IMO and will just lead to a string of defeats. Inevitably when playing the AI you do get a degree of meta-gaming where you "play the man not the ball", but IMO that is a limitation of playing the AI and you don't get it in the MP games.

It would already remove a lot of frustration on my part if the game at least did not force me each time into the same crappy deployment and troop selection that historically lost the battle.
Maybe the Skirmish mode is more suited to your temperament than the scenarios? OK, you're not going to be playing the "real" battle, but to be honest if you're changing the deployment and troops composition your not going to be doing so anyway.
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Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

I agree with Nemo84 for almost every point.

I manage to win Novarra this morning !!! demoralise 65% of the Superior french army is not easy !!!

The thing that upset me was that several time a routing unit with pursuers instead of bursting through they're friend in front of them pass around them, the pursuers following them in good starting position are now presenting they're flank to the enemy..........
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Nemo84 »

nikgaukroger wrote: Certainly not my experience. I've found that victory has been largely driven by tactics and an understanding of how the different troops interact - waiting for the luck to run your way is a poor substitute IMO and will just lead to a string of defeats. Inevitably when playing the AI you do get a degree of meta-gaming where you "play the man not the ball", but IMO that is a limitation of playing the AI and you don't get it in the MP games.
My skirmish games are indeed driven by tactics and understanding. Luck remains a factor, as it should be, but bad luck remains manageable. The campaign scenarios however give so many advantages to the opposing side in troop quality, numbers and deployment, that luck has become the prime decider on the outcome.
Maybe the Skirmish mode is more suited to your temperament than the scenarios? OK, you're not going to be playing the "real" battle, but to be honest if you're changing the deployment and troops composition your not going to be doing so anyway.
The advantage of the scenarios is the far more interesting enemy deployment.
Sennacherib
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Sennacherib »

in the last day i see two more curious things........
First i see two lancers with two light cavalry destroy a light infantry in BUA..... ridiculous combat penalty make that cav can win in difficult terrain.....
Second i see one cavalry unit charging the flank of one of my unit who was protect by a medium cavalry unit ignoring his ZOC..... medium are like light ???
shooting ART are sometime ridiculous, firing on a big pike block at close range and you killed nothing........
routing move and pursuit need to be fixed.............
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

Sennacherib wrote:in the last day i see two more curious things........
First I see two lancers with two light cavalry destroy a light infantry in BUA..... ridiculous combat penalty make that cav can win in difficult terrain.....
BUA are treated as rough rather than difficult terrain. There are plenty of cases in the ECW at least of cavalry defeating infantry in towns, and most of the BUA in the game are small villages. The infantry need to block the roads and not just hide in the buildings. This is not WW2.
Second i see one cavalry unit charging the flank of one of my unit who was protect by a medium cavalry unit ignoring his ZOC..... medium are like light ???
Obviously I don't know the circumstances but
1) Diagonal charges across a unit's front may not currently be prevented as intended - we will look into it.
2) If it was a pursuit charge, pursuers ignore ZOCs. This is working as intended, and is not going to be changed.
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by Miletus »

rbodleyscott wrote: 2) If it was a pursuit charge, pursuers ignore ZOCs. This is working as intended, and is not going to be changed.
This feels right to me. I'm currently re-reading some of my ECW books (inspired by the game), and this seems quite correct.

I wonder if some of the "peculiarities" people have raised on this thread and elsewhere on the forum reflect a lack of familiarity with the period the game covers, and/or assumptions carried over from games that cover different periods?

There are anyhow bound to be cases where interpretations differ, given the partial and often incomplete nature of the primary sources. Nonetheless the game 'feels' and 'plays' right, imho.
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by flatsix518 »

This period of war (and even later) are rife with examples of lost control of charging horse. I'm sure it was frustrating to actual army leaders.

The fact that so many gamers are expressing frustration with this aspect of the game indicates it is probably working in an historic manner.

Over the past few years I have become less enamored with heavy-handed command and control mechanisms. But the reality is that even in very modern eras, no one has perfect command of ones forces. Real command and control is imperfect. (I know this from personal experience as a retired army officer.)

This game portrays that imperfection in a elegant manner. Nothing should be changed.
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL ????

Post by rbodleyscott »

rbodleyscott wrote:1) Diagonal charges across a unit's front may not currently be prevented as intended - we will look into it.
This should be prevented by first patch.
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