overlaps with 2 HW in a keil BG

[domblas]

Dear FOGR player,
i am about to play my first FOGR friday and i can't still understand the interest of HW bases in pique keils.
As Piques are usually in 4 rank deep, how can we set 1 or 2 bases in overlap in the melee without being in illegal formation?
for example the typical 8 piques and 2 HW or 12 piques and 2 HW, do they have to be 3 rank deep to use the ability to set the HW in overlap? But gaining a dice at ++ doesn't worst losing a plus on 3 dices.

i must have missed something, help please
Domblas

[ravenflight]

Dear FOGR player,
i am about to play my first FOGR friday and i can't still understand the interest of HW bases in pique keils.
As Piques are usually in 4 rank deep, how can we set 1 or 2 bases in overlap in the melee without being in illegal formation?
for example the typical 8 piques and 2 HW or 12 piques and 2 HW, do they have to be 3 rank deep to use the ability to set the HW in overlap? But gaining a dice at ++ doesn't worst losing a plus on 3 dices.

i must have missed something, help please
Domblas

Hi Domblas,

Please remember that Swordsman/Heavy Weapon capability is the same as pike if it's in the 2nd+ rank of a Keil or Tercio.

Therefore, you have no real loss by having a Sword/Heavy Weapon stand.

Generally Keils are in much greater depth than in FoG:AM, so you may have 6+ ranks deep. This means you can expand into an overlap position, leading with your Sword/Heavy Weapon, but if for whatever reason you don't, adn you have your 3rd rank (for example) as a Heavy Weapon, it doesn't matter... he still acts as a pike.

It's kinda a freebie. You CAN use it, but you don't have to. It's not like it costs you anything, but if you get into the situation where you can expand into an overlap why not get the ++?

I seemed to remember that there was something where a Keil could have Sword/Heavy Weapon in a single rank overlap, but I can't seem to find it so I may be wrong. I don't use Keils, so I'm not overly knowledgeable about them. That said, having an overlap of one dice hitting on a ++ can be enough to get the other person to lose the combat - especially seeing keils are already fairly tough.

[gibby]

Hi ,
I don't have my rules with me but I think if we take a for instance a 14 base Kiel, it's legal formation will be something like 3 files wide. The first 4 ranks with Pike (so 12) then a 5th rank with the 2 x HW.
If in Impact you hit a 3 wide P&S straight on, you will fight Impact as you are, however during the manouvere phase if you initiated the combat you can choose to bring one of the HW from the 5th rank to create an overlap. This is an allowed exception for the purposes of combat. If it's un-opposed it gets the ++ POA.

cheers
Jim

[daveallen]

Check "OTHER MIXED FORMATIONS" page 34.

Battle groups combining Pike and HW are permitted to have the HW in files of different depth to the pikes.

So, for example,

PPH
PPH
PP
PP

HPPH
PPP
PPP
PPP

PPPH
PPPH
PPP
PPP

etc.

are all legal formations where P=Pike and H=HW.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[ravenflight]

Check "OTHER MIXED FORMATIONS" page 34. Battle groups combining Pike and HW are permitted to have the HW in files of different depth to the pikes.

Yeah, I read that and read that and read that trying to find that line. It's not real clear is it?

"Battle groups having a mix of pike and bases with swordsmen or heavy weapon capability, with or without shot bases, can have files of pike (which must always e the centre files, if more than 2); and files of other troop types which may have a different number of ranks."

Especially when you've (presumably) read p28:
"Subject to the exceptions specified below, mixed battle grouips must have the bases of each troop type in rectangular formations (and not intermingled) with all bases facing in the same direction adn with only the rearmost rank of each rectangle allowed to have fewer bases;"

Now, I admit that the part in italics pretty much precludes the part in bold, but to me it seems a bit wishy washy.

Thanks for pointing it out. I was nearly certain it was ok for pike keils with HW to have 'wings' but even reading that several times I would never have accepted that this is what it meant.

[daveallen]

The attempt to write rules concisely and unambiguously invariably leaves the rest of us scratching our heads at times.

An example is that I had not noticed the "not intermingled" stipulation on page 28. Would this mean that the second diagram above would be illegal because the Pike rectangle is intermingled with the HW rectangle? As there is no specific provision for it (unlike Pike and Shot) then it would be illegal.

Also, it would be illegal to flip out one of two HW bases to get an overlap.

A case for BGs of 13 Pike and 1 HW, perhaps.

Dave

[ravenflight]

The attempt to write rules concisely and unambiguously invariably leaves the rest of us scratching our heads at times.

An example is that I had not noticed the "not intermingled" stipulation on page 28. Would this mean that the second diagram above would be illegal because the Pike rectangle is intermingled with the HW rectangle? As there is no specific provision for it (unlike Pike and Shot) then it would be illegal.

Also, it would be illegal to flip out one of two HW bases to get an overlap.

A case for BGs of 13 Pike and 1 HW, perhaps.

Dave

No, because (groan) page 29 (on Keils) says:

"At least 2 of these 4 bases must have pike capability, and the rest either pike, heavy weapon or swordsmen capability"

However, having said that, a Keil can have shot in the formation, but I feel that there would be some P&S non-Tercio formations that don't count as Keils. The Pike, Bow, Shot, Halberd formations in the ?Elizabethan? list spring to mine.

So, yeah, it's one of those things that a regular user would probably know quite well, but unless you were well versed in the rules could lead into problems.