German Grand strategy

[supermax]

Well, for my first thread i'll will try to share my view in the only thing that counts in any strategy game, Grand strategy.

Grand strategy is the combination of Economic, tactitcal and strategic planning...

The german start the game with few options. Poland has to be mopped up, and then France. The real game start after the conquest of France. Well, most player will think that way.

But the Axis is operating under a very delicate balance, one that could be upset by bad planning. So the grand strategy for every game has to be decided before the first turn agaisnt Poland.

So here is my take on what i think is the safest and best course of action for Germany in a PBEM game, since everyone can win against the computer with any strategy. But against a good human player, you need to be a lot smarter.

Course of action: The downfall of Russia. If the Germans succeed in knowcking russia at the end of 1942, then the rest of the game will be a cakewalk.

Aspect 1- Economy

You have to think that the first thing to do would be to think the kind of army you will have for attacking Stalin. Since most good players will use the oil option, then you have to go for a balanced force, with infantry predominance, so you dont run out too soon of the precious liquid. With this kind of army and no significant attack everywhere on the map before Russia, you should be able to still have 200 oil at end of 1941, enough for the last 1942 offensive.

a) Research: 2 inf labs and 1 tank labs in the first 2 turns, then add at least 1 more in each and then if possible (with no focus if you are using random research) 2 in air with focus on the strategic.
b) Forces to build or to have at end of may 1941: 5 tanks, 5 mech inf., 20 infantry, 4 TAC (+ 1 Italian TAC), 3 Fighters, Manstein, Guderian, and 1 low-level HQ(Kluge a goopd option). The Italians will have to provide at least 5 corps, 1 tank, 1 TAC, and more if possible.
c) Note on Italian production: Those guys are only needed to fill the gaps, so only build corps, as many as you can. You will be rewarded when you need units everywhere on the map by NOT having to remove your forces deeply involved AND deepply needed in Russia.
d) Once the german barbarossa as started, only build infantry until you are sure that the campaign is going well. Adding another labs in infantry will also be helpful in the first winter. This will enable the german player to react to any allied landing on the map and if there is none, then all the better, they will be much-needed reinforcement for Russia.
e) DO NOT build any naval force or spend any on repairing the one you already have. The sub effect on convoy is minimal compared to the price you pay for them.

Aspetct 2: Strategy

After putting the production goals to destroy mother Russia, well you better give you the means (get the production points). This will be done by conquest !!! Ahhh good old NAZIS!

Poland in 1939, Denmark in 1939, Holland in 1939 or early 1940. France-Belgium in march-april 1940, Yougoslavia-Greece before mid 1941

1- Poland is destroyable in 2 turns even agasint human players, so make sure you do take only 2 turns with no losses of troops.
2- Denmark: On the turn after Poland's conquest, if the French player is not lauching an offensive, train 2 or 3 corps to Denmark, along with all your planes. Denmark is destroyable in 1 turn, provided you bombard with your battleship, use your 3 planes and at least 2 corps or 1 corps and a tank. This will block the british intervene
3- Also move your ground troops toward the west, using train for tank (since they consume oil). The infantry will get there on foot.
4- Holland: This country is ripe for the taking, so as soon as enough troops are in position, conquer it, this will give you much needed pp's. Also will put you in a better position against Belgium and France.
5- France: You will need 3 tanks (4 better), 2 (3 better) and as many infantry as you can to knock France out. Your main goal should be to limit losses to a minimum. A good advice would be not to go to close to the coast with your planes since the british CV will attack them, and the battleships will bombard your troops. Also, do not rush your tanks in the front like against the computer, the human player will just destroy them, and you cannot permit yourself to loose a tank. Also make sure your HQ are well protected at turn end, or the human ennemy will attack it in priority. Having a general hurt for 18 turns is not really cool.
6- Yougoslavia: Free PP ripe for the taking, you do so on the second turn of Rumania entering the war. GO ONLY FOR THE CAPITAL and attack with everything youve got on the air side. So with 3 hungarian troops (2 INF and 1 MOT) and 3 or 4 planes, you will be getting the capital and the country will surrender.
7- Greece (optional): Again, free PP's. Put 3 transport in position to land around Athens on the first turn you declare war, and make sure you move all your planes there to be positionned there on the attack turn. If you attack again with everything youve got, the capital should be taken and you will have anther conqueres country.
8- Mediterannean: The investments needed to really get something going in the mediterranean is prohibitive and unecessary, since if you knock Russia in 1942, you will have all the oil you will need, and beside, as we have discussed earlier, with this gameplan you will have enough oil to go by for 41 and 42. The loss of Africa is hardly a strategic disaster in this game, so you could even move the italian army there back to Europe for use against Russia or for italian defense.
9- Also, do not forget that as soon as France is done, start moving your forces toward the eastern border, making sure there is still a garrison in the west for the troublesome english.
10- A rule of thumb is ALWAYS try to save oil, so always ask yourself : " Can my infantry do the job?" Remember that moving tanks and attacking with them is prohibitive...


3- Tactical:

So, now after all this thinking, planning and careful stratetic decision, you are finally ready to end this game!

1941 --- BARBAROSSA
a) The main strategic aim of 1941 (operation barbarossa) should be the estalishment of the german army on the Moscow-Kharkov-Rostov line.
b) The secondary strategic aim (only try to achieve them if you feel you can achieve the main goals and do this at the same time), should be the conquest of the north (Talinn), establishing a line at least to Lake Ladoga.
c) Target of opportunity: Remember that you do have enough troop to do everything at the same time, so in order to acheieve the main goals you need 2 strong forces, one in the south (army group south) and one in the center (army group center). You can never be too strong at the most important spot of your campaign, so make sure that target of opportunity does not deplete your offensive momemtum by diverting units left and right, especially for the drive on moscou, where the Russian player will give you the most resistance. Not enough troops will ground your glorious wermarcht to a halt.
d) Crimea, Leningrad, northern Russia: These places are tought to conquer and will require too much offensive power diverted from the most important sector, so only leave enough of a screening force to block the Russian player to burst in your rear.
e) 1941 winter: No important offensive will achieve anything of mention because of movement restriction, so if the main and secondary goals are achieved, i would suggest you reduce leningrad to rubble with your whole airfleet , and then Sebastopol. Those offensive need limited movement, and you can move your planes around with trains. Also try to move your troops as close as possible to Gorki to be able to start the 1942 Perm offensive from closest as possible. Use the winter to refit your troops going to Perm, and also upgrading.
f) You NEED to take out the whole russian border force in the first turn, and this will mean you conquering Brest-Litovsk, Riga and Odessa on the first turn, and encircling all the troops aroud those cities with your tanks. It is very much doable, i have done it in the hardest setting against the AI and also against 2 human players.
g) Always goes for the encirclement, and then bypass the troops leaving bulgarians, rumanians and italians for mopping up encircled russians.

1942: --- Plan Blue or Siberian offensive?

a) The main strategic goals of 1942 should be the conquest of Perm, since if you do, Russia is done.
b) The secondary strategic aims should be the 2 easily attainable oilfields in the Caucasus (Maikop and oilfield) and Perm.
c) The third strategic aim should finally be to secure your western dominion, France and Italy. The allies will be very active if you acheived the goals of Barbarossa, so every contigency need to be planned to twart any landings in the Fortress Europa.
d) The Perm offensive should be undertaken by your whole aviation force (the west will hold without them since you have produced a ton of infantry), 3 or 4 tanks and then as many infantry as can be spared from other theatres. Plan blue (Caucasus) will be attainable with minimal force involment. And beside, if russia put lots of troops in the Caucasus, well, they wont be agaisnt you on your Perm drive will they?

1943 and onward:

Well, after conquering Russia, you will have more than enough troops to contain whatever they do in the west while building a decent navy and air fleet. If your war is going well agaisnt russia, research labs in air and naval wont hurt in 1941 and 1942. The rest of the game should then be a cakewalk.

[Panzer987]

I like your idea. I started playing theg ame without oil, and after "graduating" to the oil-type game play, I'm still incorporating my tank-heavy style into the strategy. I like to pound out the Eastern line with my tanks and take the western Soviet cities with them. I send my limited Axis infantry down the Crimean to take Maikon and Baku to keep me in oil, and if that isn't enough, roll them into Iraq and Persia for more. The tanks will ultimately get bogged down, so you'll have to limit their usage to defensive purposes after 1942.

[bahdahbum]

Taking Poland in 2 turns is perhaps possible but difficult ! especially if the allies reinforce regularly the unit entrenched in Warsaw , same for Paris . I had a unit there resisting 8 turns before being destroyed and it was assaulted on 5 sides and with airplanes also

wonder what's your trick

[Redpossum]

bahnahdum, I am with you here. I was reading the original post, and I kept thinking, "Either this guy is insanely optimistic, or he really knows a LOT of things I don't!"

Getting some of those quick results is certainly possible. I've taken Poland in 2 turns and Denmark in 1 turn before...against the AI

But doing it consistently? And getting all of those one and two turn knockouts? Forgive me if I'm a wee bit skeptical

[hoombala]

Taking Poland in two turns is possible, but some luck is necessary so it cant be counted on. It is next to impossible for Germany to win (IMHO) if allies use all british troops to reinforce france. So that should be taken into account for and "grand" strategy!

[rkr1958]

bahnahdum, I am with you here. I was reading the original post, and I kept thinking, "Either this guy is insanely optimistic, or he really knows a LOT of things I don't!"

Getting some of those quick results is certainly possible. I've taken Poland in 2 turns and Denmark in 1 turn before...against the AI

But doing it consistently? And getting all of those one and two turn knockouts? Forgive me if I'm a wee bit skeptical

In trying out different strategies to take out Poland & France I've played the first part of the 1939 scenario ~ 20 times against the AI. In only 2, did Poland fall in two turns (10%). In 4, Poland lasted 3 turns (15%). The rest (75%), Poland fell in 4 turns.

I've never taken out Denmark in 1 turn. However, I only use two Infantry Corps and invaded on the second turn while still heavily involved in Poland. I use the trick of having a unit next to the Port of Kiel, transporting it and unloading it next to Copenhagen to attack the unit there, while the second Infantry Corp travels over land to attack that unit. Also, I used the Germany BB to bombard. Using this strategy, sometimes Denmark falls in two turns and sometimes it falls in three. No matter though, it falls before the end of October 1939.

[crazygeorge]

Here's another approach:

When playing the 1939 scenario as Germany, consider your starting forces as an Army Group building block. The main concept is that you need to upscale your land forces significantly if you want to be ready for Barbarossa by copying the starting forces order of battle. Thus, you should be able to produce an identical number of units for France so you should ideally have the following:

6xArmored
4xMotorized
12xInfantry
4xInterceptors
2xTac Bombers

Once France is out of the picture you can start concentrating with the minor countries, allocating 2 Infantry corps and your Tac bombers for Denmark and Norway. In addition, one Armored, 4 Infantry and any allied forces such as Italians and/or Hungarians for the Balkans. This is an important campaign to have a jump-off point for the Africa campaign.

Leave your Interceptors in France to harass UK's air units.

Keep building your forces so by the time Barbarossa starts you should have Belgium, Denmark, Greece, France, Norway and Yugoslavia.

On to the big one...

If you have been keeping your unit production up at all times, by Spring of 1941 you should have the following:

9xArmored
6xMotorized
18xInfantry
4xInterceptors (besides the four you have in France)
6xTac bombers

There are two different options here, either follow the historical plan of three groups (North, Center, South) or go for a strong south group and a regular center. The idea is to drive to the Caucasus as soon as possible and cut Russia in half. After all, the South has more favourable terrain for your panzers. Keep the Russians in check along the North from the Baltic Sea to Smolensk and Kursk while your mad dash towards Baku and the Caucasus keeps rolling until you reach Stalingrad and consolidate for the winter.

Provided that you've transported most of the Italian troops to North Africa the Suez canal is not out of reach so you should be able to come within striking distance.

During the 1941/42 winter, build a rapid combat group with at least one Armored and a couple of Motorized infantry to assist the Italians and quickly get a hold of Iraqi oil. If this campaign is successful you can have another jump-off point very close to Baku and go for a double pincer. From then on you should have enough oil to keep your gas-guzzling panzer troops well fed.

[ybasquet]

Hi all,

I am surprised by the strategies exposed in this forum... I've got it pretty clear that the success of an Axis strategy goes through a strong and useful Italian army, they really make the difference, mostly from 1943 onward.

Ciao a tutti

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Here's another approach:

When playing the 1939 scenario as Germany, consider your starting forces as an Army Group building block. The main concept is that you need to upscale your land forces significantly if you want to be ready for Barbarossa by copying the starting forces order of battle.

I wonder how you can have such a large force before you attack Holland, Belgium and France. You need to start attacking in January if you want to be in Paris by May. The only way you can have such a big land and air force is by completely ignoring labs and subs.

I don't think you need such a big force to take out France. I can easily capture France by May or June at the latest by only building a new fighter and a new tac bomber. I don't need more land units to be successful. That means I can afford to build as many labs as possible.

The starting forces for Barbarossa seems to be very strong with armor and air units. I think it's possible to have such a force if you ignore labs and subs. But this force will burn a LOT of oil and you simply can't hope to win in Egypt if you put all your eggs in the Russian basket. Britain's convoys will get home and Britain can reinforce Egypt with lots of units to make sure Germany will never get to Iraq or Persia. Italy won't get far in Egypt without strong German help. I managed to crush the Allies in Egypt when playing against Happycat. Then I had 2 German fighters, 2 German tac bombers, 1 German armor and 3 German corps units in addition to all the Italians. I needed such a strong force to break the Allies resistance. The Italians could only make a support role because they have such low efficiency and can't repair much damage due to a very weak production. When I committed such a strong German force to Egypt I had to pay the price by being weaker in Russia. I had to delay Barbarossa till July because Happycat invaded France just to disrupt my plans. I had to divert forced temporarily from Russia to France and then send them back when the menace was dealt with. I could only muster 5 armor, 2 motorized, 4 tac bombers, 4 fighters and lots of corps units when I invaded Russia. I was successful, but got a bloody nose in november when I met the Russian double defense line.

The biggest problem for Germany in 1941 is that you can have the strongest army you want, but you won't have any units to fight if the Russian player is smart. Russia should run as fast as possible eastward and form a rear double defense line front. Germany will spend most of 1941 just marching to this front line, capturing cities on the way. When he's in a position to challenge the front line then the Winter is nearby. It's not much fun trying to breach a double defense line front with Winter movement. It will be a war of attrition.

Germany will only win in 1942 if Russia decided to defend far to the west (Dnepr / Dvina line) and became crushed there. Then Germany can rush towards the Urals or Baku in 1942. But it's so much bad terrain there that you will need most of 1942 to just get there.

If Germany ignore labs to save PP's and oil then he will pay the price when they Allied and Russian units outperform the German ones. The strategy mentioned above only works if the Allied player sits there idle and watch what happens in Russia. A smart Allied player will form a kind of second front early (maybe in Egypt and Algeria) or maybe by invading France itself. He builds several strat bombers and then the Germans will regret not having hi-tech fighters. The strat bombers can bomb unescorted after they receive some tech levels. They suffer a few hits, but if you have 6-8 strat bombers (some British and some US) then you can send half the bombers each turn and repair the others. The Allied player can send fighters first to bombard hexes in France or the Low countries to force the Axis fighters to intercept. That should clear the path for the strat bombers to hit targets without being intercepted.

An Allied landing in France when the Germans are committed in Russia is a real pain to deal with. You need to rail units to France to deal with the invasion. If the British player sends 4-6 corps units then the Germans need a large force to get rid of these units. That means the punch in Russia will be much less. Losing 4-6 corps units is not a problem for the British if his convoys get home every turn. So a German player building mostly land and air units will be faced with a very strong British player.

I think the Germans can't win by conquest against a good Allied player. You need to get to Perm (in the vanilla game) to knock Russia out of the game and it can only be done late 1942 or early 1943 if all goes very well. But the Allies will never let that happen. The Germans need to garrison the Med and western Europe as well. It's simply not possible to have enough units to be strong everywhere.

Germany have 2 big achilles heels. One is the manpower level. If you build many units then you will get lower quality troops. The other is the oil situation. The main reason I don't build more armor and air units before Barbarossa is because I will run out of oil in 1942 or 1943 if I ignore the oil problem. When you build such a unit you have to take into consideration the oil consumption it will have in 1943-1944 and not only in 1941. E. g. you can see your strong Panther or Tiger tanks consume 5 oil per turn. Your fighters and tac bombers will also consume 4-5 oil per turn then. It's terrible to see a strong German air force grounded because the oil reserves are depleted. You will also notice that in 1943-1944 the Axis will be hard pushed in Russia and then you can't afford to move your armor units westwards and must rail them instead. But they can't rail if they're in enemy ZOC. So you will see your heavy tigers become surrounded and crushed due to lack of oil.

Some German players ignore this problem by saying that he builds for taking Perm by the end of 1942. If he fails to do that then he will just surrender and not finish the game. With such a plan he doesn't need to research and he can build lots of land and air units. He plays on one card only and if he fails then he loses big time. But I don't want to play against people who fold when they realize they can't win by conquest. Happycat and I always play till May 1945 or when Berlin falls. We have house rules for victory so Germany has something to fight for all the time. E. g. the Axis will win a marginal victory if Berlin is still Axis controlled by the end of May 1945. Then there is some purpose in playing even when the grand strategy of taking Perm fails.

I think Germany can win the game by being offensive where he is dominant as long as he has the initiative. But he must switch to aggressive defense when the tide turns and then try to keep what he has. It's one thing for Russia to defend. It's much harder to attack and kick Germany out of Russia. if Russia start too early then the offensive will burn out with little results and Germany can counter attack and crush the Russians. So Germany can manage to form a temporary stalemate in Russia in 1943 and then deal with the Allies. But this is not possible if Germany ignored research and only built some extra units.

It's important to remember that your human opponent can always respond to your plan and try to disrupt it. A good unit player will analyze your weakness and exploit it. So never underestimate your opponent. My experience is that grand plans only work against the AI because the AI lacks the ability to exploit weaknesses and have grand plans its own. Every time I make plans against a human player I end up being surprised and must alter it to avoid defeat. Still you can learn some basic ideas that usually works in CeaW and use them as a starting point for a plan.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Hi all,

I am surprised by the strategies exposed in this forum... I've got it pretty clear that the success of an Axis strategy goes through a strong and useful Italian army, they really make the difference, mostly from 1943 onward.

Ciao a tutti

I agree that the Italian army can help the Germans, but they don't fight well in combat against the Allies or Russias. So I usually use the Italians to maintain parts of the second line in the Axis front line in Russia. I also use the Italians as garrison units for rear cities. I do the same with Romania, Hungarian and Bulgarian troops. This means the better German troops can be in the front line and do the actual fighting. One reason I do this is that Italy can't afford to pay for lots of repairs. By keeping a double defense line in Russia then I know Russia won't be able to break through and threaten the encircle any units.

I usually use the Italian airforce in Russia where they have enemy fighters they can fight well against. I let the Germans do the critical fighting in Italy. E. g. the Germans should occupy the important cities in Italy. That means these cities won't turn Allied when Italy surrenders. Italy is the soft underbelly and losing Rome means all those nice Italians will disappear. It's a disaster for Germany in Russia so it's vital to keep Rome as long as possible. So you need to place some fighters, tac bombers and German units there when the Allies threaten to invade mainland Italy.

As a support country then Italy is great, but I would never rely upon the Italians to win battles. E. g. taking Egypt with only Italians is very very difficult. Italy will fall very quickly if the Allies can land there and only fight Italians. You only need to bombard an Italian unit with 1-2 air units to bring it down to red efficiency. Then you can attack it and suffer almost not damage and force the Italian unit to retreat. So they perform poorly, but they occupy hexes and can be used as support troops. E. g. the Italians do well against partisans in Russia.

[crazygeorge]

@ Staufen: That's correct, no labs or subs until 1941. The main goal is to make4 the Allied player spend PP towards repairing a constant air harrasment. The Kriegsmarine will be port-bound until the Italian fleet can land in the Biscay, following a successful North Africa campaign. Granted, such an order of battle is a gas guzzler but the momentum is immense.

Don't forget that until late 1941 the Germans have the advantage organization-wise so the first phase of Barbarossa will have Leningrad surrounded, on Moscow's doorstep and the southern group should be able to reach Stalingrad and perhaps even further if you're lucky.Ideally by the beginning of the second phase in the summer of 1942 you should be able to take Baku and provided thatr Mosul is already in Axis hands it might make the oil situation much more bearable.

Finally, if the Axis player doesn't take Russia out of the game by 1942 his/her chances of winning are very small, hence the heavy oil cunsumption and large army approach. Trade you entire oil reserves for a quick win against Russia.

P.S. I've just had a crazy idea: An all infantry and airforce order of battle! I'll try it out and tell you how it goes. Chances are it will either fail miserably or steamroll all the way to Perm...

[rkr1958]

The biggest problem for Germany in 1941 is that you can have the strongest army you want, but you won't have any units to fight if the Russian player is smart. Russia should run as fast as possible eastward and form a rear double defense line front. Germany will spend most of 1941 just marching to this front line, capturing cities on the way. When he's in a position to challenge the front line then the Winter is nearby. It's not much fun trying to breach a double defense line front with Winter movement. It will be a war of attrition.

Germany will only win in 1942 if Russia decided to defend far to the west (Dnepr / Dvina line) and became crushed there. Then Germany can rush towards the Urals or Baku in 1942. But it's so much bad terrain there that you will need most of 1942 to just get there.

Interesting ... In AH Third Reich, I used a triple defense line, the first two lines formed of infantry corps (solid with unit touching unit) and the third line formed of armor w/ZOC touching ZOC. The first line was composed of lesser value infantry units (1-3s & 2-3s). The second line was composed of 3-3s and 2-3s. This was necessary to prevent an initial breakthrough against exploiting Axis armor supported by airborne. However, the Russian player to survive early on had to be in constant retreat trying to save high cost units (i.e., 5-4 air, 3-5 armor & 3-3 infantry) and trying to reform at least a double line. Even then it was near impossible for a good Russian player to keep the Baltic states from being captured by a good Axis player by the end of 1941.

In CaEW, since you have no control over the Russian at start units (and no control over builds once placed) until the Russians are at war this type of pre-war setup is not possible. So I see your strategy of running east to form the double line once Russia is at war. This just seems so non historical though. Also, you don't get the great encirclements and destruction of Russia forces that historically occurred in 1941. However, I guess the end result approximates that which usually occurred against goods players in AH's Third Reich.

Based on my understanding, it wasn't unit Kursk (1943) that the Russia adopted a defense in depth strategy (e.g., double line). I guess we have the advantage of hindsight.

An Allied landing in France when the Germans are committed in Russia is a real pain to deal with. You need to rail units to France to deal with the invasion. If the British player sends 4-6 corps units then the Germans need a large force to get rid of these units. That means the punch in Russia will be much less. Losing 4-6 corps units is not a problem for the British if his convoys get home every turn. So a German player building mostly land and air units will be faced with a very strong British player.

One strategy I use as the axis player to counter this is that I heavily invest in u-boats and naval labs with a focus on u-boats. I don't use u-boats in the historical sense, which is to attack convoys. I use them to control the English Channel the coastline of France and Germany. When strong enough I take on the Allied navy and sink/damage them. Also, I add a couple of fighter wings in France to support this. At least against the AI, I've found this strategy works very well and I'm able to destroy and prevent any transports from landing their units until mid to late 1944. The AI, however, does a terrible job protecting transports.