Irregular Light Cavaalry, inercept charging

[pugsville]

The Rules say only cavalry in tactical can intercept charge. So can irregular Light cavalry intercept charge? The move as skirmishers and fight as skirmishers but they are in tactical. I say yes.

[KeefM]

Irregular light cavalry are in skirmisher formation and not in tactical formation so cannot intercept charge.

[pugsville]

they are not in skirmish formation though, the rules say "Irregular light cavalry in any formation are considered to be skirmishers for both movement and combat" (page 10) clearly the rules say they can be in in other formations and the charge phase is neither movement or combat.

It's debatable it's why I am seeking clarification here,

[deadtorius]

First thing to keep in mind is that a unit in skirmish formation is never in tactical.

Even if two bases deep they are still in skirmish formation, its just not as wide a frontage. Regular light cav in a single line is a different case, in a single line they count as skirmishers if two bases or more deep (large or small unit) then they are in tactical. Irregular cavalry is in skirmish whether they are in a single rank or they are two or more bases deep.

Page 32 first bullet "An intercept may only be performed by units of Cavalry or Infantry in Tactical formation That rules out the irregular light cavalry as they are never in tactical formation. check page 107 definition of skirmishers, second bullet "all units of Irregular light cavalry.

Somewhere in the rules or on this forum it states that skirmish and tactical are two different formations and you can't be in both, Terry had confirmed that a year or so ago on the forums. It had come up whether you could have skirmishing infantry two bases deep,same as tactical formation or not and did they still count as skirmishers.

[pugsville]

true rule squire clearly state that irregular cavalry can be in other formations but count as being skirmishers for combat and movement. While regular light cavalry in skirmish don't count as being in skirmish formation for movement.

Irregular light cavalry can be in tactical, but move and fight as if in skirmish formation. If they can't be in tactical the rules should say that they are always be in skirmish formation and it would follow then they cannot intercept. But they can be in tactical (and they is no real advantage for them ever to in in skirmish formation as they get the benefits of movement anyway) then they CAN intercept.

The rules as written I would strongly argue that they CAN intercept (though against the front of units they need a CMT they are unlikely to pass, generally it's flank charges) if this is wrong the rules need to be clearer.

[KeefM]

I agree with Dead on this one. There is seemingly no ambiguity in the rules here.

So, specifically, which part of the rules are you referencing when you say that Irregular LC can be in tactical formation ?

The specific part that says they aren't is near the front of the rules which describes the only permitted formations. It is quite clear in that section that tactical formation and skirmish formation are two very separate things. I will provide the page reference when I have my rule set in hand later today.

[deadtorius]

Page 10 under heading Cavalry last entry. Irregular light cavalry in any formation are considered to be Skirmishers for both movement and combat.

I do recall seeing somewhere in the rules it states that tactical and skirmish are two different formations, and that Terry had confirmed it here in the forums regarding infantry skirmisher formations. Thus Irregular light cavalry are permanent skirmishers and can not ever be in tactical formation, even if they are arranged two bases deep like drilled troops.

[deadtorius]

Page 106 Irregular Last line: Irregular Light Cavalry are always treated as skirmishers

They can't be in tactical so can not intercept.

[pugsville]

skirmishers is a category that troops may or not meet. units in skirmish formation is not that same.

it does NOT state that they are always in skirmish formation. page 10 clear state
'. Irregular light cavalry in any formation are considered to be Skirmishers for both movement and combat.'
which makes no sense at all of they cannot be in any other formation.

i fairly sure as rules as written say they can be in tactical and therefore can intercept.
i posted to get a definite ruling as the it's inferences in both interpretations rather than direct statement.

[Blathergut]

can see if terry replies

[KendallB]

I agree with Pugsville. There are skirmishers and there is skirmish formation.

If a unit is in skirmish formation they act as skirmishers e.g. light infantry being represented by 4 loose order bases.

Units can be skirmishers e.g. irregular LC, no matter what formation they are in.

Units can act as skirmishers e.g. regular LC in extended line.

[KeefM]

Page 16, Formations, "troops must be in ONE of the permitted formations" is pretty clear that the formations are mutually exclusive. One exception ONLY is listed here, namely, Supported which says that it is a type of Tactical formation. Skirmisher is NOT mentioned as being a type of Tactical formation.

Page 107, Definitions, Self-supported repeats this point. Again, the Skirmishers entry does not.

Intercepts are only possible to infantry and cavalry units in Tactical formation, page 32, first bullet point.

Page 106, Definitions, Irregular, last sentence: "Irregular light Cavalry are always treated as Skirmishers."

Thus, Irregular light cavalry cannot intercept charge because they are always in Skirmisher formation and which is NOT a type of Tactical formation (unlike Supported).

[KendallB]

Then I pity anyone who has got a Turkish army because irregular light cavalry now is virtually impotent.

Let's have a look at their advantages:
1. Move 6MU in difficult.
2. Move half move in any direction if >2MU.
3. Move out of deployment area if first 2 turns if defender.
4. Are ignored if routing.
5. Can be interpenetrated by charging non-skirmishers.
6. May rear support other cavalry and provides flank support to cavalry, infantry and artillery.

Now the disadvantages:
1. Only ever fight with 4/6 dice.
2. Must evade if charged unless passing a CT to stand. If failed they lose a cohesion level and evade.
3. One die for CMT.
4. Must make a CMT to charge non-wavering non-skirmishers frontally.
5. May not intercept charge, even on the flank/rear.
6. Must evade if a non-skirmisher interpenetrating cannot fully pass through.

Now, I know there will be a lot of "Cossacks weren't battle cavalry" comments but for the Turks they make up a good proportion of their army and many Russian lists have Cossacks as compulsory core cavalry. And how much of a discount do you get for these now hamstrung units compared to a bog-standard Average Drilled LC? ONE point per base!

I know that my Cossacks are going to be staying in the box now.

[KeefM]

Those are still some pretty good (and unique) advantages that simply aren't available to regular light cavalry unless in extended line and then only in a limited way.

As a soon to be operator of Cossacks myself, I am rather looking forward to the addition of that mix of distinct approach into my gaming.

And, I hesitate to point out, that the 'disadvantages' haven't seemed to have hampered the current string of successes being enjoyed by Surfboard with his Turks !!

[KeefM]

Anyway, Kendall, you are the MASTER of cossack use !!

It was solely your brilliant use of cossacks even with their 'disadvantages' that inspired me to go for the "green machine" - I can't wait to be able to be zipping hither and thither with near uncatchable agility.

[deadtorius]

A few clarifications on your advantages and disadvantages

1. Move 6MU in difficult.

2. Move half move in any direction if >2MU.

don't forget you can make a full move directly to your rear

3. Move out of deployment area if first 2 turns if defender.

4. Are ignored if routing.

5. Can be interpenetrated by charging non-skirmishers.

Its only Infantry Skirmishers that can be interpenetrated so you might want to move this to the other list.

6. May rear support other cavalry and provides flank support to cavalry, infantry and artillery.

7.You can charge wavering, broken, skirmishing troops, enemy flank/rear or limbered artillery without a test.
8. If enemy is within front arc and 6 MU you reduce enemy shooting dice at medium range.
9. you can always evade enemy charges, not just in a single line.


Now the disadvantages:

1. Only ever fight with 4/6 dice.

If you send them into a square they get just as many dice as normal cavalry so not a totally bad thing in that case

2. Must evade if charged unless passing a CT to stand. If failed they lose a cohesion level and evade.

Not sure where you got the cohesion loss thing from. You only lose a level if you are contacted in your evade and you would get an extra 4MU added to your move so you would still end up out of combat. An evade with no contact you keep your cohesion level, so running from regular cavalry is no biggie.

3. One die for CMT.

And Conscripts are in the same boat, so don't feel too bad for them.

4. Must make a CMT to charge non-wavering non-skirmishers frontally.

Once again you can charge Skirmishing enemy, limbered artillery, charge and force a cohesion test on a wavering target all without taking a CMT and move at 10 MU to boot. Not really a disadvantage if you ask me.

5. May not intercept charge, even on the flank/rear.

6. Must evade if a non-skirmisher interpenetrating cannot fully pass through.

Not quite correct here. If enemy cav is fighting infantry in the open they may pass through, unless there is insufficient space on the other side of the infantry square... etc, its on page 66. If the blocking troops are enemy skirmishers then they must make an evade move. Basically they can't prevent enemy cavalry from passing through your infantry squares since they will evade away from the passing through enemy.

Over all I think it looks like they are still pretty good troops so don't put them away forever yet. I am currently working on Russians and have had some old ancients who have been standing in as Cossacks and I have found them useful. Like all other skirmishing troops you can't send them in to go and beat up line troops in combat but they are useful in other ways. When we started playing these rules I never took Grenzers as I found them useless, once I got a handle on how to use them they are always part of my Austrian armies now. You just have to figure out how to use them other than to close in and mix it up with the sword, which is not their strong suit.

[KendallB]

I could still intercept charge then.

Now I think I'll put them in the line to reduce medium fire and help split enemy fire from the infantry. It doesn't matter if they get wavered as they can get out of the way easy enough.

[deadtorius]

Another added bonus
10. if they charge infantry in open and not in square within 2MU the infantry auto drop a level of cohesion.
11. If they charge infantry in open and not in square more than 2 Mu away the infantry take a Cohesion test for being charged by cavalry etc...

In some ways they still fight like normal cavalry

[deadtorius]

Now I think I'll put them in the line to reduce medium fire and help split enemy fire from the infantry. It doesn't matter if they get wavered as they can get out of the way easy enough

That has been the best way I have found to use them so far, just try to keep them away from the normal cavalry on the other side of the table.

One thing I am curious about though is why only Infantry Skirmishers get the -POA for being shot at. I would assume a light infantry unit skirmishing would would have more bodies out there then a unit of irregular cavalry milling about but the cav get shot at with normal hit numbers with less targets. Or so I would assume anyway.

[KendallB]

Dead,

I still maintain that I'd rather pay 8 points per base for Average Drilled Hussars than 7 points per base for Cossacks now. The regular LC are just more useful for an additional 4 points per unit.


"2. Must evade if charged unless passing a CT to stand. If failed they lose a cohesion level and evade.
Not sure where you got the cohesion loss thing from. You only lose a level if you are contacted in your evade and you would get an extra 4MU added to your move so you would still end up out of combat. An evade with no contact you keep your cohesion level, so running from regular cavalry is no biggie."

If you look at the second bullet point on the right side of Pg 30 for Reaction Moves it states that "Light Cavalry in Skirmish formation must test if they wish to counter-charge non-Skirmishing Cavalry. They will evade if the test is failed." Then under the list of bullet points is "All failed tests will cause 1 loss in cohesion..." This means if a regular LC in tactical charges your Cossacks and you wish to fight (there are times when you have to fight!) you take a CT, albeit with 2 dice, but if you fail you drop a cohesion and evade.

But as I was saying it's not the Russian armies I feel sorry for as they only have one or two Irregular LC it's the Turkish and Mameluke armies who get about half their cavalry as Irregular.