Swiss

[mic]

In "Storm of arrows" I see there is a Swiss list. Does it have an early option? mostly halberds? MF armored? protected? Heavy weapon?

[nikgaukroger]

Yes

[mic]

anything else I need to paint up for an early swiss option list 650-800 points 15mm? I have 40 odd bases of MF HW 3 to a base and 12 bases LF xbow
thanks regards michael

[neilhammond]

anything else I need to paint up for an early swiss option list 650-800 points 15mm? I have 40 odd bases of MF HW 3 to a base and 12 bases LF xbow
thanks regards michael

Hi Michael,

A base of swiss halbediers is worth 10 points (superior, drilled, protected, hvy wpn). The crossbows 5 pts/base. Your generals will cost in the range 120-155. You're total will be about 120/155+400+60 = 580/615. You'll need more halberdiers.

Neil

[mic]

thanks Neil
What else can i take i don t have the list?
Knights xbow Cav LH ?

[neilhammond]

What else can i take i don t have the list?

I don't have the list either. Just working from my general knowledge of the Swiss and from the old DBM books. And points values are from the rules (I'm a beta tester). I'd guess that you can probably have 4 bases of LH crossbows, but it may only be 2 bases as the Swiss really didn't have much mounted. Any mounted crossbows tended to operate as scouts and dismounted to fight, so the list writers may either class them as "poor unprotected LH crossbow" which dismounted as "average unprotected LI crossbow" or may choose to not represent them on the battlefield as mounted at all, so they'd be classed as part of the pool of LI.

No knights to speak of in the early period (18? at Laupen), and any that turned up dismounted and fought with the halberds.

The Early Swiss should be allowed some ‘enfants perdus’ (skirmishers armed with stones) in the early period, as these were recorded at Laupen (1339). I'd guess they'd be classed as LI, poor, javelins. Six bases? They weren't very effective and caused some panic in the Swiss ranks when they fell back through the main body of halberds.

The Early Swiss probably would be allowed some field fortification in the form of stone/wood barricades.

[hammy]

Depeding on how early you want to be you can have some pike and lots of halberds

The earlier Swiss are allowed 20 light foot crossbow and I would take at least 18 of them if not all 20. They can also have upto 8 bases of handgunners. All the light foot are 4 points a base.

The halberd are 10, pike (if you want any) are 8 points a base and really work best in blocks of 8 or 12 bases.

All Swiss armies are allowed one battlegroup of 4 bases of light horse crossbowmen at 7 points a base.

Other than that early Swiss get “Enfant perdus” throwing stones, upto 8 bases a 2 points a base and upto 12 field fortifications at 3 points.

Most FoG armies are allowed a fortified camp too and this costs 24 points.

Generals will take between 100 and 200 points, normally around the 120-150 mark.

[neilhammond]

Depeding on how early you want to be you can have some pike and lots of halberds

Pikes were first used at Arbedo in 1422, where perhaps one third of the MF/HF infantry were pikes. Before that, no pikes.

[hammy]

Depeding on how early you want to be you can have some pike and lots of halberds

Pikes were first used at Arbedo in 1422, where perhaps one third of the MF/HF infantry were pikes. Before that, no pikes.

Hmm, interesting. The list allows a limited number of pikes (well 8-32) from 1360 ??

I was not involved in the research, perhaps Richard or someone else on the list front could comment?

[mic]

Thanks gents

[rbodleyscott]

Depeding on how early you want to be you can have some pike and lots of halberds

Pikes were first used at Arbedo in 1422, where perhaps one third of the MF/HF infantry were pikes. Before that, no pikes.

Hmm, interesting. The list allows a limited number of pikes (well 8-32) from 1360 ??

I was not involved in the research, perhaps Richard or someone else on the list front could comment?

Pikes were not used in very large quantities until Arbedo, however the earliest contemporary pictorial representations of Swiss pikemen (from Basle) go back at least to 1370. Hence we have allowed a limited number in the earlier period. (32 bases might not seem like a limited number, but the later list allows about 100).

[neilhammond]

Pikes were not used in very large quantities until Arbedo, however the earliest contemporary pictorial representations of Swiss pikemen (from Basle) go back at least to 1370. Hence we have allowed a limited number in the earlier period. (32 bases might not seem like a limited number, but the later list allows about 100).

I'm not convinced. The Basle Levies is dated circa 1390, and shows pikemen. The first recorded use of the pike in any great number is 1425. Certainly at Sempach in 1386 there was no pike used. My view is that it was Sempach that triggered the introduction of the pike. At Sempach the Austrian MAA used their lances/spears to hold the Swiss at bay, rendering the halberds ineffective. The Austrians came close to victory. The Swiss concluded that they needed something to counter the tactics of the Austrians, hence the pike, which out-reached the MAA's lance/spear. Arbedo in 1422 reinforced the lesson, where perhaps one third of the Swiss (certainly no more) had pike.

So, allow pikes after 1390, but not in any number (but not before). By 1420 1/3 should be allowed pike. By 1425 the ratios can be reversed. By 1440 the majority of heavy infantry will have pike.

[mic]

So gents how are the early swiss halberdiers rated HF based 40mm by 15mm 4 to a base OR MF based 40mm by 20mm 3 to a base. anyone know?
thanks regards michael