Frozen ground but with unfrozen rivers?

[Uhu]

Is it possible to make? I only see solution for major rivers to set them as sea but than even the bridge engineers could not cross them.
Another question is - I didn't find answer in the forum: how the minor and major rivers work in frozen condition? As I saw major frozen rivers reduce movement to 1 and I felt that some negative effects they also make for the units on them. And what about the frozen minor rivers?
And when we are already at slowing down: how exactly trenches effect movement? I also saw that somehow they slow it down but I don't know the formula.

[ThvN]

Hello Uhu, I'm not a scenario modder, but I may have some answers...

I only see solution for major rivers to set them as sea but than even the bridge engineers could not cross them.

Have you tried using the 'Strait' terrain type? Maybe you can set the terrain to it and change the graphic layer manually so it will look like a normal river. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it should work like a normal river (although it is accessible to ships), but it won't freeze over.

Another question is - I didn't find answer in the forum: how the minor and major rivers work in frozen condition? As I saw major frozen rivers reduce movement to 1 and I felt that some negative effects they also make for the units on them. And what about the frozen minor rivers?

Are you sure about this? I thought rivers (normal and major) give the same movement penalties when frozen, most units will take 2 movement points to pass, so a fast unit will be slowed down very little. And I don't think they give negative combat effects anymore.

Alos, if I check the in-game library section on movement, or the movement.pzdat file, I see no difference between normal and major rivers when they are frozen. Only if you mod the movement.pzdat can you get different movement rates. So maybe your file is modded?

And when we are already at slowing down: how exactly trenches effect movement? I also saw that somehow they slow it down but I don't know the formula.

They are in the library as well, as 'Fortification' terrain type. They are about as hard to cross as forests or hills, although infantry suffer no penalty. But strangely, they are not 'close' terrain.

[Uhu]

Thanks for the info!
Strait as I know do not slow down units to 1 (as unfrozen minor rivers) or do I know it wrong?

Have you tried using the 'Strait' terrain type? Maybe you can set the terrain to it and change the graphic layer manually so it will look like a normal river. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it should work like a normal river (although it is accessible to ships), but it won't freeze over.

Yeah I see this very illogical and unrealistic. I think fortification should give more protection and no move-restricting at least for the armored forces. The problem is that rugged defence happens rarely and that means that even a 13-14 star core pzgrenadier with heroes and arty backup will be attacked and seriously damaged by 300+ xp soviet T-34/85's or IS-2's. Fortifications are therefore only good for AT guns and 88 Flak in AT mode...

They are in the library as well, as 'Fortification' terrain type. They are about as hard to cross as forests or hills, although infantry suffer no penalty. But strangely, they are not 'close' terrain.

[ThvN]

I've checked things, but it seems the 'strait' works slightly different from rivers... my apologies. Normally, the strait can only be entered using a units entire move, and they can move off normally. But if you put a bridge engineer on the strait it will not allow the units to cross as if there were a bridge. I'm not sure if this is intentional, because to me it would be strange to allow bridge engineer to establish crossing for major rivers but not straits?

But I may have found a solution. In the terrain.pzdat, the 'strait' terrain lacks the trait 'river', which I think it needs to allow the bridge engineers to work. So I added it, and now the bridge engineers work normally. And it doesn't seem to freeze according to a quick test I've run. You can also (in movement.pzdat) make sure 'normal' units cannot cross it, by changing the penalty values of the 'strait' terrain type for those of the 'major river'.

This might be a nice idea, if I'm correct you can simulate three types of river with a little modding and editing. You can have small (freezing) rivers that can be crossed by anyone, major rivers that can only be crossed by bridge engineers (but can freeze over so anything can cross) and if the graphic tile layer is changed to match the visual look of the major rivers, you can have rivers that must be bridged and cannot freeze.

[Uhu]

Great idea, but it doesn't seems to work (straits still working as frozen rivers) - maybe the river trait makes the strait also work as (frozen) river? Well it has really no logic why bridge eng do not have the ability to aid the crossing over strait. Maybe the game designers didn't thought on that?

UPDATE: maybe it will work, I just forget to delete the river feature after I placed the strait terrain.

I've checked things, but it seems the 'strait' works slightly different from rivers... my apologies. Normally, the strait can only be entered using a units entire move, and they can move off normally. But if you put a bridge engineer on the strait it will not allow the units to cross as if there were a bridge. I'm not sure if this is intentional, because to me it would be strange to allow bridge engineer to establish crossing for major rivers but not straits?

But I may have found a solution. In the terrain.pzdat, the 'strait' terrain lacks the trait 'river', which I think it needs to allow the bridge engineers to work. So I added it, and now the bridge engineers work normally. And it doesn't seem to freeze according to a quick test I've run. You can also (in movement.pzdat) make sure 'normal' units cannot cross it, by changing the penalty values of the 'strait' terrain type for those of the 'major river'.

This might be a nice idea, if I'm correct you can simulate three types of river with a little modding and editing. You can have small (freezing) rivers that can be crossed by anyone, major rivers that can only be crossed by bridge engineers (but can freeze over so anything can cross) and if the graphic tile layer is changed to match the visual look of the major rivers, you can have rivers that must be bridged and cannot freeze.

[Molve]

I've checked things, but it seems the 'strait' works slightly different from rivers... my apologies. Normally, the strait can only be entered using a units entire move, and they can move off normally. But if you put a bridge engineer on the strait it will not allow the units to cross as if there were a bridge. I'm not sure if this is intentional, because to me it would be strange to allow bridge engineer to establish crossing for major rivers but not straits?

This is actually a concern for the Suez Canal scenario of Afrika Korps - the Suez Canal is implemented as straits hexes which means that bridge engineers are useless there, despite how they are extremely helpful in bridging the Nile River south of Cairo (in the very same scenario).

And - much like you, I suspect - I would imagine the mighty Nile River to be much more difficult for combat engineers to bridge than the man-made, well-banked, straight and narrow Canal... (I do realize the scenario was constructed in that way to enable the gimmick of having the Royal Navy enter the canal; something that is actually hard coded into the movement of that particular RN Cruiser)

As to your main problem, I haven't checked myself, but I fear it entirely possible that you cannot uncouple the river trait's ability to be bridged (by engineers) from its ability to freeze over (and be crossed by everything).

[ThvN]

I ran a small test, it seems the 'strait' doesn't freeze, even with the 'river' trait added. I'm not 100% sure, since I used cheats, but there is hope.

And yes, the Suez Canal should be able to be crossed with the help of bridge engineers, because that has actually happened. Operation Badr, 1973 Yom Kippur war, was the crossing of the Suez Canal by the Egyptian Army, and guess how they did it?