Constant bonus of +2

[azpops]

"Credits, food, minerals, production and research buildings now give a constant bonus of +2 instead of +2/+4/+8."

In short games this is not a problem. If like me, you like to play the game out for a long time, it makes the game unplayable after about turn 550 or so. It was hard enough to keep in minerals before with the variable bonus numbers, but now with them fixed at +2 you run out of minerals much earlier. The only way to overcome this problem with minerals is to put fungus in every hex which then increases your pollution. This in turn leads to decreased morale which leads to reductions in all the other numbers.

I don't like it. Like I said, I like to play the game out for a long time and this pretty much means I have to end the game before I like because I can no longer produce enough minerals to keep my civilization going.

[jdmillard]

I love it. I think it really magnifies the "specialized cities" feature of the game. When the flat bonuses are so high, it's too easy to just build every building in every city which is not strategic. Jus sayin.

After playing this new version (which will be after I finish my current game), I'll add my opinion about possibly buffing the % bonus of those buildings. We'll see.

[Apheirox]

Like Millard says, this change is definitely for the better... but: Whoa - it's a pretty drastic change, to say the least. I find it a bit concerning if such fundamental features need to change this much. I've just read the 1.1.3 patch notes and I must say I think it looks like a huge overreaction: Not just the +2 (which will *completely* change how the game is played, city building will be entirely different now) but also the field promotion operation which has now, IMO, been severely overnerfed - especially the 50% damage part.

I do strongly disagree with you though, OP - what happened before was the transcendence era whizzed past so fast you didn't even have time to explore the new toys it unlocks because the game ended so fast due to the massive income rates. The new income rates will encourage some modifications to player behaviour which are all for the better:

1) More incitement to expand early rather than just turtle in base

2) Rewards intelligent city specialization much better

3) Rewards seeking out city sites dedicated to each resource type, making intelligent use of the map features (you'll need a food city, a mineral city and a production city now)

4) Game will last longer and there will actually be time to use weapons like the Black Hole Generator and the Titan mech

The real question now is if a flat +2 bonus is the optimal solution... lessening the flat bonuses is definitely good for the game, but should they all remain at +2? Does it make sense that the lowest level building gives the same flat bonus as the highest level one? Did Slitherine strike the right balance here, or should the number be something else? Maybe the flat bonus should be completely removed from the first level of the buildings? The game currently has the 'problem' that cities relate very little to the surrounding terrain and while this change is certain to improve on that, maybe it should be changed even more.

[azpops]

I do strongly disagree with you though, OP - what happened before was the transcendence era whizzed past so fast you didn't even have time to explore the new toys it unlocks because the game ended so fast due to the massive income rates. The new income rates will encourage some modifications to player behaviour which are all for the better:

I agree with you in that the transcendence era moves much too fast. I have complained about that since I started the beta back in February. My concern deals more with mineral production. Everything feeds off minerals and under the old system I could keep producing enough minerals to keep playing long games. I have installed the new patch and opened my saved game and suddenly find myself losing over 550 minerals a turn whereas before I was just barely breaking even. When you can't produce enough minerals to keep going what's the point in playing??

[player1]

Actually, I think keeping +2 on base building is great thing.

In early game, if terrain is bad, this is good way to keep up, and give small cities a chance. Especially, since there are not enough workers to get benefit from +25% bonus that is given to worker in any greater amount.

When mechanization era comes, it's time to specialize and use those +50%/+75% effects that workers get more, instead flat ones, to improve city.


P.S.
Factory and resource buildings give same flat bonus. So +2/+2/+2 for minerals is paired with +2/+2/+2 for production. No "loss" of minerals.

[Apheirox]

I do strongly disagree with you though, OP - what happened before was the transcendence era whizzed past so fast you didn't even have time to explore the new toys it unlocks because the game ended so fast due to the massive income rates. The new income rates will encourage some modifications to player behaviour which are all for the better:

I agree with you in that the transcendence era moves much too fast. I have complained about that since I started the beta back in February. My concern deals more with mineral production. Everything feeds off minerals and under the old system I could keep producing enough minerals to keep playing long games. I have installed the new patch and opened my saved game and suddenly find myself losing over 550 minerals a turn whereas before I was just barely breaking even. When you can't produce enough minerals to keep going what's the point in playing??

Move your workers into mining or research. That -500 deficit will disappear at the cost of you building slower. Your complaint isn't sensible - you can't assign X amount of workers and then expect to always have enough minerals to support them, it's the other way around: You can only have as much production as you have minerals.

--- ---

Having had the chance to briefly play the beta here's a few nitpicks I really think you should try to get into 1.1.3:

- Cloning operation micromanagement: When I cast this on a city that already has a cloning operation, the operation shouldn't just vanish with no effect and be lost like it does now. Instead, it should prolong the cloning time: 4 turns remaining --> 14 turns remaining. I'd also really like to have an overview somewhere so I can see which cities have cloning active and which do not; basically, give me an easy way to find out which cities I need to cast cloning on when I have 20+ cities

- Colonization Fervor still overpowered: This tech is too good. The Colonizer shouldn't be entirely free, it should cost a population point from the city it gets built in. Otherwise, we get the current situation where this is a tech you *must* beeline because the free population point is so very good (the free pop point gives you a sizeable turn advantage over somebody who doesn't get it immediately)

[boulugre]

.... but also the field promotion operation which has now, IMO, been severely overnerfed - especially the 50% damage part.

I don't feel it's overnerfed, now it will take more time and planning to train your troops and it is more matching the description of the operation ( a real ammo training where only the bests survives) while still beeing an incredibly powerful ops as in this combat system a + or - 10% often makes the difference between defeat and victory.

For the other change I need to play a game before giving feedback

[azpops]

[quote="ApheiroxMove your workers into mining or research. That -500 deficit will disappear at the cost of you building slower. Your complaint isn't sensible - you can't assign X amount of workers and then expect to always have enough minerals to support them, it's the other way around: You can only have as much production as you have minerals.[/quote]

Actually, I already tried that. I moved every single worker toward mineral production and I was still producing a deficit. Now not only was I not producing any minerals, I also wasn't producing anything in all of my cities. It just doesn't work at this reduced level if you try to play a lengthy game.

I like the idea of a full 4X game, not just an exterminate as quick as possible before your minerals run out game.

[SephiRok]

Do you have a save I can check?

[player1]

azpops,
Are your factory and mining techs at same level?

[fortydayweekend]

It should only drop minerals by 8 per city max, right? (-2 for mech building and -6 for trans). Even without factories you'd need 70 cities to lose 550 minerals - maybe it's something else having that effect?

[Monaldinio]

This change is definitley right! I love it! It was absolutly nonsense to Feed the hole Population with only one City!
The same with Minerals and credits/Research!

Before this change, in the middle of a game, the Game (mechanics) was Out of Control!
+ 500 Food/credits/Minerals/Research was a normal Thing! Especialy in long games!!!!
And thats silly...boring

Now you have to think about wich City you speciliced! I love it!

[BlueTemplar]

After a re-balance patch, it's normal that your game, which relied on a different balance, feels off. Increase the number of miners and reduce the number of workers.

IMHO, _all_ the flat bonuses should be removed, leaving only the % bonuses. As already said, this will make city specialization more important. Before, with +2/+4/+8 it was a no brainer to just build these buildings in all your cities ASAP. And where exactly do these resources come from if no workers are producing them? Plus, it would make rushbuying with credits and the Market more important.

As for the too much / not enough resources problem, this is better solved by rebalancing the game elsewhere.

[jdmillard]

After a re-balance patch, it's normal that your game, which relied on a different balance, feels off. Increase the number of miners and reduce the number of workers.

IMHO, _all_ the flat bonuses should be removed, leaving only the % bonuses. As already said, this will make city specialization more important. Before, with +2/+4/+8 it was a no brainer to just build these buildings in all your cities ASAP. And where exactly do these resources come from if no workers are producing them? Plus, it would make rushbuying with credits and the Market more important.

As for the too much / not enough resources problem, this is better solved by rebalancing the game elsewhere.

I agree.

[boulugre]

As for the too much / not enough resources problem, this is better solved by rebalancing the game elsewhere.

Yes, by giving more options to the former to change the land by example

[Apheirox]

You're still better off building all the buildings, even the transcendence era ones. I'm not going to post the math right now but all the buildings are still worth building always (even mining in cities with no miners or food production in cities with no farmers) because they're still a much better option than the only other way to enlarge your economy: the cloning operation.

I'm considering creating a mini-mod with a rebalance or at least post the structure for a rebalanced version where specialization is better encouraged.

[jdmillard]

You're still better off building all the buildings, even the transcendence era ones. I'm not going to post the math right now but all the buildings are still worth building always (even mining in cities with no miners or food production in cities with no farmers) because they're still a much better option than the only other way to enlarge your economy: the cloning operation.

I'm considering creating a mini-mod with a rebalance or at least post the structure for a rebalanced version where specialization is better encouraged.

I would love to see a round of beta where the flat bonuses are removed... Just to see what it's like. If we all hate it, it can be changed.

[SephiRok]

The problem we encountered in the pre-release beta wiith no constant bonuses was that the buildings felt worthless in the beginning, so there was nothing substantial to build except units.

[jdmillard]

The problem we encountered in the pre-release beta wiith no constant bonuses was that the buildings felt worthless in the beginning, so there was nothing substantial to build except units.

I can understand why that might be annoying. But it's expected that they wouldn't be worth as much. So I naturally would aim for formers (to have more of them than before) since it will have a higher return on my investment early on... that is until my cities start making harvesting a greater quantity of resources. All this does is delay the logical and strategical timing of these buildings. They could even be pushed back a tier on the tree. Sure they feel worthless but that's only in comparison to the method that has buildings with high flat bonuses.

Plus, now there are substantial things to build because we have advancements to produce.

[Apheirox]

The problem we encountered in the pre-release beta wiith no constant bonuses was that the buildings felt worthless in the beginning, so there was nothing substantial to build except units.

The changes I'm thinking about making will keep a constant bonus on at least the first tier simply to prevent situations where a bad spawn with few minerals make it completely impossible to compete. The real problem is the second and third tiers where the building upkeep and building cost itself is still so low there's no reason not to build them everywhere.

Perhaps the cost of buildings themselves need to be increased all round - this would solve the issue you ran into, as well.

I would love to see a round of beta where the flat bonuses are removed... Just to see what it's like. If we all hate it, it can be changed.

EDIT: Alright, I've gone ahead and created this - it's just simple text file editing, the files are available in XML format in your game folder.

Backup your Slitherine/Pandora/Data/World/Buildings folder then unzip my file into same folder and there will now be no flat bonuses.