88 Flak in AT mode - where to place?

[Uhu]

It is not fully clear which is a better placement for the 88 Flak in AT mode: in 'close defense' terrains (hills, forest, etc.) or in open fields? I would choose automatically the first option but if I think about it...88 Flak AT has a close defense value of 1...

It is not this topic but I also noticed that it is not useful to place inf in trenches if late war soviet armored beasts shows up: rugged defense happens rarely (even on entrechment level 5!) and losses gets high if they are attacked. While on close defense terrain even with low entrechment the stats are much better for the defender infantry. Or am I see something wrong?

[shawkhan]

Personally, I like to place my '88' behind my frontline, left in AA mode. When the Russian heavies move up I change mode to AT and move that one hex forward to attack. This is the same way I deal with the British Matildas and the French CharB. Unfortunately the '88' in the game is not given accurate attack values in AT mode. They should be much higher. This restricts the '88'' from being very effective after 1943.

[LandMarine47]

The 88 was in my opinion was a multi purpose gun. It had a AA variant, an AT variant, and an Artillery variant. While I agree a'round 1943 the poor gun could no longer go head to head with tanks, Allied forces feared the whine of a Battery of 88's firing in the distance p, and pilots feeling their aircraft tremble under exploding FlaK

[ThvN]

It is not fully clear which is a better placement for the 88 Flak in AT mode: in 'close defense' terrains (hills, forest, etc.) or in open fields? I would choose automatically the first option but if I think about it...88 Flak AT has a close defense value of 1...

Fore me, placing it depends on the opposition it will face. I would look at initiatives of the units involved, the 88 Flak AT has ini=8, but if it is attacked by tanks/recon this will be boosted to 8+3=11 effective. So if it is used defensively against such units and their initiative is equal or lower I will put in in open terrain. If it has lower ini, you could place it in close terrain (which also provides more cover against attacks, except those from infantry, they will devastate it if it has no artillery support) to 'cap' the initiative and at least remain equal with the attackers.

Just watch the ini cap of different terrain types, and sometimes the weather will cap it as well.

It is not this topic but I also noticed that it is not useful to place inf in trenches if late war soviet armored beasts shows up: rugged defense happens rarely (even on entrechment level 5!) and losses gets high if they are attacked. While on close defense terrain even with low entrechment the stats are much better for the defender infantry. Or am I see something wrong?

This had me fooled when I wasn't very experienced at the game; I somehow thought that the 'fortification' terrain was 'close', but it isn't, it just provides better base entrenchment and ini cap 3. I'm not sure if it should be, it depends if they are to represent hastily dug trenches and foxholes or pre-planned defensive obstacles.

You are right to put your infantry in close terrain, it will give them a much better chance, as they can inflict much more damage because here they use the targets close defense, in fortifications they use ordinary ground defense, so tanks will be hard to damage for them.

[Molve]

I didn't think you could place AA in AT mode?

[the_iron_duke]

I didn't think you could place AA in AT mode?

With German 88mm Flak 36 you can, which make it a very useful unit - especially powerful for anti-tank duties early in the game. Note that the 12.8 cm Flak 40 it can upgrade to lacks the switchable AT feature. Here's ThvN's helpful switchable unit list:

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=44602&p=423382&hi ... ch#p422339

[Uhu]

Is this valid only with the 1.21 game rules or also with 1.14? Or it is set as universal rule?

...but if it is attacked by tanks/recon this will be boosted to 8+3=11 effective...

[ThvN]

There seems to be a bit of confusion, I hope I can help clear things up:

Uhu, it is a universal (hardcoded) gamerule that +3 ini gets added to the initiative of an antitank unit when it is attacked by tanks or recon units. (So not when it attacks them, only when it is attacked by them) This bonus is shown on the combat log, but the resulting total will be capped by terrain/weather. There are other (hardcoded) class bonuses as well, although some can be modded in the gamerules file (like the 'low altitude attack penalty').

Molve, if you are trying to say that you cannot place the FlaK in AT mode during deployment, then you are right. During deployment, the unit can only be placed in its basic, unswitched state. So you have to wait until your first turn to be able to switch it, which can be a problem if the AI has the first turn.

[the_iron_duke]

With German 88mm Flak...

Oops, it's your thread, Uhu, so you probably did know that!

[Uhu]

Thanks for the info!
(Still even 14-15 star 88's are vulnerable on 3 star T-34/85, or IS-2 attack...)

There seems to be a bit of confusion, I hope I can help clear things up:

Uhu, it is a universal (hardcoded) gamerule that +3 ini gets added to the initiative of an antitank unit when it is attacked by tanks or recon units. (So not when it attacks them, only when it is attacked by them) This bonus is shown on the combat log, but the resulting total will be capped by terrain/weather. There are other (hardcoded) class bonuses as well, although some can be modded in the gamerules file (like the 'low altitude attack penalty').

Molve, if you are trying to say that you cannot place the FlaK in AT mode during deployment, then you are right. During deployment, the unit can only be placed in its basic, unswitched state. So you have to wait until your first turn to be able to switch it, which can be a problem if the AI has the first turn.

[Uhu]

Sure!
Although I don't update the 12,8cm to switchable, because:
1., Game balance perishes as this unit would be an uber-unit.
2., Historical 12,8 AA batteries were not widely used in AT mode (as I know).

With German 88mm Flak...

Oops, it's your thread, Uhu, so you probably did know that!

[Molve]

Molve, if you are trying to say that you cannot place the FlaK in AT mode during deployment, then you are right. During deployment, the unit can only be placed in its basic, unswitched state. So you have to wait until your first turn to be able to switch it, which can be a problem if the AI has the first turn.

Yes, thank you, exactly this.

In the unit list (in the editor) there exists "the FlaK in AT mode" as a unit, but this unit cannot be purchased or deployed (in effect, an "AT that can be switched to a Flak" unit). Otherwise this unit appears for all intents and purposes to be a "real" unit - it looks and feels exactly like any other unit in the editor at least.

I guess "nopurchase" tag tells the game to not offer it on the unit purchase screen... I wonder why...?