Republican Roman List - Italian Allied Infantry?

[Empgamer]

Couple of quick questions on Mid Republican list in Beta rules:

1) Where is says 'Except for Italian Allies, max number of bases of optional troops is 8' does this mean that ALL Italian Allies are excluded entirely from that calculation (e.g. thus you could take up to 12 regular and 4 extraordinarii AND up to 8 others) or is it just that the instance of EITHER the 12 regular that's being allowed (or even the 12 + 4 extraordinarii)

2) For Second Punic War, given that AMPW etc refers to most Italian Allies being in legion form at this time, does this mean that these allies would best be represented by allied hastati/principe types (or are those types of allies accounted for in the legion maxima under 'core'). If they are indeed catered for in the legionary entry what troops would best represent these Italian Allied at this time. It seems that most Italians would be 'subject state' by this time and thus the Italian Allies would not really be taken at this time in any form other than legion. This of course is a specific timed army question.

[nikgaukroger]

Couple of quick questions on Mid Republican list in Beta rules:

1) Where is says 'Except for Italian Allies, max number of bases of optional troops is 8' does this mean that ALL Italian Allies are excluded entirely from that calculation (e.g. thus you could take up to 12 regular and 4 extraordinarii AND up to 8 others) or is it just that the instance of EITHER the 12 regular that's being allowed (or even the 12 + 4 extraordinarii)

Well it says "Apart from Italian allied foot, no more than 8 bases can be used from the optional troops list." and both the Extraordinarii and others are Italian, allied and foot I think you can safely take it that you can have the 12 + 4

2) For Second Punic War, given that AMPW etc refers to most Italian Allies being in legion form at this time, does this mean that these allies would best be represented by allied hastati/principe types (or are those types of allies accounted for in the legion maxima under 'core'). If they are indeed catered for in the legionary entry what troops would best represent these Italian Allied at this time. It seems that most Italians would be 'subject state' by this time and thus the Italian Allies would not really be taken at this time in any form other than legion. This of course is a specific timed army question.

Those allies using Roman equipment are included in the "core" troops.

[Empgamer]

You may well be right but the question that arose from some who will be playing some play test games was along the lines of "Does that exception ONLY apply to the specific instance where up to 12 or 12+4 Italian allies are used" (e.g. you can take your full quota of them but NO others if you do) or, as seems to be the intention, that they are excluded period and essentially you can take 12+4+8 if you had a mind to. That the question has arisen (doubtless from people whose heads have been scrambled with Barkerese) tends to indicate to me that it might benefit from clarification. I didn't see the need for clarification at first but when it was put to me "ah yes, but surely that is just to allow the Italian Allied which are allowed 0-12, 4 over the otherwise maximum", I can see the issue.

I'd still be interested as to what troops these might be in 2PW.

[rbodleyscott]

I'd still be interested as to what troops these might be in 2PW.

Any Oscan ally javelinmen not yet assimilated to the Roman system. Their existence at this date is to some extent speculative.

And yes they are excluded from the restriction, so you can have 12 Italian ally medium foot + 4 Italian ally MF Extraordinarii + 8 other optional bases.

[Empgamer]

Thanks Richard. I'll mail the guy I'm playing later to tell him to read this. Exception to me in plain English means that, a total exception for those fitting the bill. Inevitable I suppose that some will read things differently.

Off now to continue my hunt for 15mm allied legion figures, just so they are different to my Magister Roman troops (slightly). Not having much luck at the mo. Outstanding set of rules from what I've read so far.