contradictious rules?

[HarryKonst]

A LH battle group evades and has to burst through friendly battle groups, but there is no room beyond them to be placed.
In FoG 2.0 in the Impact face-evade moves section and on page 72, the rule says;" Battle groups that cannot complete an evade move by any of the above means move as far as they can, and are likely to be caught."
Now, on page 51 in the general movement rules-bursting through friends section, the rule says;"Move the evading or routing battle group to the full extent of its move.If its move does not completely clear all friends, it is placed beyond any battle group(s) it is currently bursting through if there is room for it beyond, otherwise it is destroyed and removed from the table.No cohesion test is taken for friends seeing this."
So the Lh bg in our case, stops short of the friendly bgroups and gets caught, or is destroyed and removed immediately?-Harry
P.S The same rules appear and in the first Fog version on pages 49 and 67.So, there might be something I misunderstand.Any clarification?

[RobKhan]

It does look a bit difficult to me too. The "move as far as they can" compared with "get destroyed" seems to be a contradiction. And it applies to all BG's where permitted interpenetration does not occur and the other mechanisms don't work, not just your LH example.
I eagerly await the experts on this one, because it makes me question one or two events on the table last Tuesday - sadly for me I got hammered whichever way this query plays out!

Robkhan - Hooray I'm out of that damned bunker!!!

[grahambriggs]

The way it work is as follows:

You normally move your full evade distance.

Sometime you must stop short. For example, if there are enemy in the way.

Friends in the way are not one of the things that make you stop short. With friends you:
- interpenetrate if you can. If not;
- avoid if you can by shifting, contracting, etc
- otherwise burst though.
If you burst through and there's no room on the other side you're destroyed

[prb4]

I think there is another possible event.

If you evade through a friendly BG that your ARE allowed to interpenetrate and therefore do not burst through it.
If there is no room beyond then I believe you stop short.

[RobKhan]

OK I understand, thanks Graham.
Robkhan

[zoltan]

The way it work is as follows:

You normally move your full evade distance.

Sometime you must stop short. For example, if there are enemy in the way.

Friends in the way are not one of the things that make you stop short. With friends you:
- interpenetrate if you can. If not;
- avoid if you can by shifting, contracting, etc
- otherwise burst though.
If you burst through and there's no room on the other side you're destroyed

So if friends are in the way you are not permitted to 'stop short'; you must do one of the other things listed by Graham.

[bbotus]

The way it work is as follows:

You normally move your full evade distance.

Sometime you must stop short. For example, if there are enemy in the way.

Friends in the way are not one of the things that make you stop short. With friends you:
- interpenetrate if you can. If not;
- avoid if you can by shifting, contracting, etc
- otherwise burst though.
If you burst through and there's no room on the other side you're destroyed

OK, i have one question. The LH is evading and runs into a friendly LF which they can normally interpenetrate but don't have sufficient move to make a legal interpenetration. They cannot avoid so instead of stopping short they must burst through and are destroy because sufficient room does not exist beyond. Does the LF drop one level cohesion for being burst through as stated on page 51 but contradicted on page 72?

[HarryKonst]

Thanks for the answer.Grahams answer makes things clear.I was playing the rule wrong for some years.
I also believe that the bursted through battlegroups still pay the price of loosing a cohesion level, even though the bursting through bgroup has no room to be placed.The rule says that no bgroup tests for seeing this, not avoid the penalty of bursting through.I hope I got that right.

[grahambriggs]

Yes i think you are right Harry

[bahdahbum]

I was wondering : pg72 : a unit can shift and contract at the same time but no base may shift more than 1 base width ...

Now if you contract a base, it shifts one basewidth ! so how can you combine shifting and contracting ?

Unless contracting is not shifting one basewidth

[titanu]

I was wondering : pg72 : a unit can shift and contract at the same time but no base may shift more than 1 base width ...
Now if you contract a base, it shifts one basewidth ! so how can you combine shifting and contracting ?
Unless contracting is not shifting one basewidth

If you have a BG 4 bases wide with a gap behind only 3 bases wide. If we assume the 4 bases are in the middle of the gap. When they evade they contact at one end and then shift towards the side where the base WAS 1/2 a base width then they can pass through. Each base has shifted only 1/2 base with sideways and one has contracted. QED it works!!

[RobKhan]

I often puzzled about this one, but titanu's explanation would leave the contracted base half a base behind the front base and this doesn't accord with the BG formation rules. Or do I not understand his explanation - half base to the left then half base contraction. You cannot expand again after getting through the gap.

Robkhan

[titanu]

I often puzzled about this one, but titanu's explanation would leave the contracted base half a base behind the front base and this doesn't accord with the BG formation rules. Or do I not understand his explanation - half base to the left then half base contraction. You cannot expand again after getting through the gap.

Robkhan

You misunderstand - see below:

[RobKhan]

Misunderstand is my middle name

So this doesn't mean a grand total of one base width change, by either/both methods. The shift is a maximum of 1 base width and no more, and the base move to the rear is limited to 1 base width too. So a LH block of 4 can shift up to 1 base width and pull 2 bases to the rear of the others to form a column to get through a gap - this means a LH 4 xBlock can alter it's position by 2 base width frontages - is that right??

Cheers
Robkhan

[grahambriggs]

What it means is, in say 15mm scale, that the maximum any one base can move sideways is 40mm. This limit applies to every base in the BG.

[RobKhan]

So I am right with my LH 4 block example. It would be a total of 80 mm of position change. Up to 40mm side shift and a 40 mm move behind by one pair to form the one base column then through the 1 base gap(in my example)
OR, by saying "any one base" do you mean the LH can either shift 40mm OR move one pair behind the other, but not both.

Robkhan

[petedalby]

Check out the diagrams on page 172 & 173 Rob - hopefully they'll help?

[bahdahbum]

Yes and no...they show contracting, not contracting and shifting .......

[zoltan]

So I am right with my LH 4 block example. It would be a total of 80 mm of position change. Up to 40mm side shift and a 40 mm move behind by one pair to form the one base column then through the 1 base gap(in my example)
OR, by saying "any one base" do you mean the LH can either shift 40mm OR move one pair behind the other, but not both.

Robkhan

No I don't think you are right. I think Graham is saying that no base may move more than 40mm whether by contraction or shifting sideways. Some bases may shift; some may contract. But none can move more than 40mm.

[bahdahbum]

If you contract some bases, how can they shift and not move more than 40mm ( if playing with 5mm figures ) . It's impossible to do both but the rules say you may shift AND contract ...so how do you do it if the solution presented here is not correct.

Unless you consider contracting as not moving sideway 40mm