Do you use recon and anti air units in the GC?

[fliegenderstaub]

Well, I use recon units through GC40, maybe in the first scenarios og GC41, but later on for me they seem too weak to be used. Other units got the sighting bonus, too (Kradschützen f.e.). OK, they have the recon move, but I prefer firepower (i.e. tanks). So I use an additional tank instead of a recon unit.

In GC42/43 West you start with 9 units (plus SE). For me it is not worth "wasting" one space for a recon unit. During Hardelot I receive three recon units. After the scenario I sell them.

What are your experiences and suggestions?

How about AA units? In the East I never use them (except the "Achtacht" of course ). In the West I use the 12,8 Flak I receive during Syracuse. I usually downgrade it to an 8,8 Flak, so I can use it against tanks and have still considerable anti air power.

So, does anyone use the mobile AA units? Any experience with AA so far?

[shawkhan]

Mobile AA comes in handy in Afrika Korps. The British always have swarms of fighters and AA is much cheaper to replace than fighter units. My few Luftwaffe aces need all the help they can get from Gazala on. The AA protects your vulnerable artillery when the airbases are too few and far between before your long-range fighters (Fw190A) become available.

[rezaf]

As I wrote quite often now in numerous threads about various topics, I really feel the game (at this point: a sequel to it) could benefit greatly from a force pool mechanic as introduced in Panzer General ... I think it was IV?
You had a managed force pool at all times, and only so many of the better tanks were in it at a time - 4 Tigers and that's it. Only then is it plausible for the average player to even think about using a sub-par unit.

In the game as it is, I'm completely with you, I use recon for the first years, but as tanks grow more powerful, I phase it out in favor of more tanks. I use one or two '8.8 Flaks in the early years when my tanks are pitiful - mostly to be used in AT role, but once the better PzIV variants become available, I phase them out.
But maybe I'm just not representative, as I basically don't use most units for one reason or the other.
I basically use MNT and Heavy Inf., Tanks (few heavy but slow, more slightly weaker but more mobile), Fighters, some TACs, sometimes AT (but reluctantly so, I feel even Elefants are not really substantially better than another Tiger) ... and ARTY, that's it.
I am aware some units I ignore can be used to great effect - STR bombers, for example, but they don't match well with my style of playing.
_____
rezaf

[sn0wball]

In the GC, I have not used Recon or AA units unless I was awarded them for free. They use up core slots better used otherwise. Recon units have simply no chance of survival, unless you use them very, very cautionary, but if so, they offer no advantage over the +1 Sight tank unit that you will acquire over time. As for AA, I didn´t really need it, since air superiority was always my prime objective, so there were enough Fw´s or Me 262´s around.

[Resolute]

I think it really depends on the difficulty setting. I usually play with 50% prestige for myself and since 1.21 I found AA units really valuable. Overstrengthing units to 15 is just no longer an option and what is really hurting in the GC from 43 onwards are the strafinig enemy fighters. Being able to at least protect some of my forces saves a lot of prestige in the long run and offsets their disadvantages. Same goes for AT units which I never really cared about but the Stug is fairly cheap and served me really well so far. Regarding Recons I never use them especially since I've played through the GC quite a few times so I know what to expect.

[wargovichr]

I have found 88s very effective anti-air worth keeping in core. You will notice that the Russian will quite often not move air units within range of a known 88, very helpful. Like a protective bubble when escorting soft targets.
They are very good anti-tank units, entrenched and hidden. Then you don't have to coddle a traditional anti-tank unit along.
Yes, I downgrade the 12.8cm AA to an 88 too. Perhaps the 12.8cm AA wasn't used that way (anti-tank role) in WWII...I wonder why that was----barrel couldn't be depressed or no anti-tank rounds available??
I don't use the mobile AA unless given to me as auxiliaries. Even still, in certain scenarios if you have the prestige it is worth converting them to towed 88s for use as described above.
In mobile situations, move your towed 88 up to the front line, one square back, where it might be used next turn by moving a square--to clean up any weakened enemy armor and gain useful experience. Blessed be the hero that bestows TWO hexes on a disembarked towed 88.

[wargovichr]

What would be very useful and economical would be RECON INFANTRY that would have half-strength compared to the other infantry types, could be more numerous and expendable and be useful for garrison duty. Make a special rule for taking up less than a full core position.

[boredatwork]

I use both.

I play at a custom difficulty between FM and Manstein and use the "+/-core" cheat to balance out individual scenarios. In 39-40 I'll add a core slot to bring in one AA unit per scenario for experience - though it rarely gets more than 1 shot. In scenarios where I'm given auxiliary AA I'll +core an equivalent number of slots, bring in my own units, and not use the aux units in compensation.

For recon I edited the equipment file - historically Panzer Divisions had a Kradschützen Bn and an Recon Bn until mid war, after which the units were merged. I made 2 switchable units - one a 232/Kradschützen for early war, the other a Puma/SdKfz250 (ie Kradschützen 43) which makes them a much more interesting and viable unit right up until the end of the war - recon when advancing or additional infantry when assaulting/defending.

[captainjack]

I'm in the last scenario of AC at General, with 1.21.

I started off using recon because early on it was as tough and hard hitting as the tanks (especially when your recon has +3A hero) while being cheap to replace and to patch up. I got spotting heroes on a lot of infantry early on, and one of my fighters later got a second spotting hero which made recon less important. I kept a recon vehicle for checking for minefields and also used it to sneak through gaps to get as arty and to surround troops to try to force surrenders. Later (about DDay) I got fed up of reforming them and kept the +3A in reserve. When I got to Berlin, I used this and a Chevy for picking off victory hexes after the heavier troops had moved on - mostly because I had so much Arty I was having trouble finding real troops to spare.

I had a maximum of three fighters (one SE for escorting my Strat bomber and two normal) plus a Tac Bomber that could do any finishing off, but never considered purchasing any AA in the core this time. However, I happily used the auxilary AA units in Cauldron and Crete and they were very useful, both for protecting ground units and for softening up higher-initiative fighters. Although it was handy in these scenarios, I can't see myself adding AA to core in future, except by following the advice of Boredatwork who suggested adding a core unit slot especially to make space for an AA unit.

And I like Boredatwork's recon units - these kind of units make me think I should be using mods.

[Razz1]

I use recon as they are cheap to replace and the extra visibility is worth it.

I use AA units and they work well if you know how to use them.

Near the end it is hard to justiy the recon but the AA is worth it as you are on the defense.

[dks]

I'm starting to use Kavallerie as my recon now. more versatile as upgrades go along. you end up as has been said with several units with spotting heroes anyways. Kavallerie has been a real advantage over the wheeled recon for me so far doing my replays of GC 39' on. took me awhile to adjust but again, Kavallerie work for me.

haven't been able to try out the Kradschutzen yet. terrain might be a problem with those.

anti air: not sold on those yet doing my replays. I like everything to use in my core. I might start using the SdKfz series. a hard choice to fill a slot with AA over a fighter though. the 88 is just too slow for me to use. if considering the fighter gets a spotting hero, then to me, the fighter is the best of both worlds of recon and air cover.

[shawkhan]

I find it a matter of saving prestige points. Fighter units work well but they are expensive. During the periods when your fighters are becoming outdated and you are waiting for upgrades, Bf109G/Fw190A/Me262, AA units can fill the gap nicely. Remember they can also fire more than once, useful when enemy air outnumbers you.
Recon units I think are most useful in the early years. Before you have acquired spotting heroes and before enemy armor becomes too powerful, recon can hold its own. I personally really like the multiple movement for quickly capturing hexes then moving on.
If you are playing on settings that allow you unlimited prestige then fighters give the biggest advantage in the game. If your budget is tight then the cheaper units can help you fill core slots that would otherwise would go unfilled.

[wargovichr]

I found that having at least one experienced recon unit in core is VERY useful especially in later years as the Russian AA only worsens and enemy fighter numbers grow. Use in critical spearhead areas right behind the front where it can move up to the line next turn, complete recon duty (spotting defender AA and arty units!), then be pulled back behind the line** before turn end.Using fighters for recon leads to nasty surprises. Having and maintaining two recon core units is pushing it.
I still like the idea of a new unit -- a recon INFANTRY core unit -- that can be split in to two units to provide useful and more expendable recon and/or garrison duty. Add a special prestige charge for splitting.

[captainjack]

Wargovichr's comments make a whole lot of sense. 1.2 makes experienced AA much more dangerous, which means that forward air cover can come to a bad end very quickly. Mobile AA becomes much more relevant as you can then use a smaller group of fighters to cover rearwards units and for beating up stray enemy planes (preferably with an experienced 88 or 128 for back up). I've just finished AC, so I might try the GLC east route to see if I can make this work.

[wargovichr]

I modify my idea about recon infantry. Do NOT make them core units. Make them auxiliaries purchasable each battle. Then, they could be used as recon and be expendable. Everyone's had a beloved recon unit nurtured from battle to battle, year to year only to have it destroyed because you forgot to second move it back behind the safety of your lines. The AI LOVES to destroy recon because doing that is key to the enemy defense, blinding you, forcing you to recon with fighters, with aggravating losses.
Yes, expendable recon infantry. GREAT idea.

[fliegenderstaub]

By the way: It is possible to add the trait "reconmove" to the equipment file for Kavallerie and Kradschützen for example. That way they work as a recon unit. I haven't tried out yet if it is possible to reinforce them like a recon unit after undoing a move.

[Uhu]

I have to say I play GCs deeply modified: stats with Deducter's mod + strong editing after it by myself to add units historical values. Secondly I lowered the prestige and do not accept special units, bonus units (gift units only 1 per year). Enemy is also modified changing for example silly BT-7's in 1944 to T-34/43 and so on. With that I could only affort two Panthers in Jan. 1944...(no Tigers of cause)

Now to the topic.
- Yes, 88 Flak are wonders! Early brought and carefully handled they are now 13-14 stars and I'm depending heavy on them to weaken the (also very strong because of the mods) Red Airforce. Against Soviet heavies (with 85mm guns or 3+ stars) they are no more wunderwaffen though...
- Recon: with the mods (10+ defense, 4 range) they are really useful units! I have two of them. One collected 7 DEF (heroes), so it is almost indestructable. The other got +1 range so I upgraded it to Sdkfz 233, so the 4 range stayed. They are also very good to "collect" non-objective towns, airports as they are fast and can jump-in/jump-out from dangerous places.