good and new ideas for a tournament

[navigator]

As i ponder on next year's Bayfog I wonder if others have ideas for new/varied tournaments. We have run the 900pt average joe/jock/jack theme for two years and it seems well liked by the 20 or so who have entered each year. But has anyone else got ideas which we could consider...... and what would make new chaps attend?

thanks
Paul

[philqw78]

what would make new chaps attend?

thanks
Paul

Dancing girls and free beer

[MatthewP]

Preset terrian is a suggestion that crops up regularly. Noone has really tried it to my knowledge and I would ceertainly be interested.
Matthew

.....and beer and dancing girls obviously.

[AlanCutner]

A few years ago (in DBM days) one of the SW doubles was organised with each round having a different scenario - attacking through a mountain pass (defender only got to use half their army), relief of a village, getting a convoy through, and a 'normal' game. Although some changes in balance between attacker and defender were required it was a very enjoyable and different tournament. Always wished it had been repeated.

Beer and dancing girls would obviously be an improvement.

[spike]

I was thinking of a beginners comp. next year in Stockport ( They have a few beginners).

3 Games.
Starter armies only
4x3 Tables, with preset terrain
2 hours +/- 10 mins

S

A few years ago (in DBM days) one of the SW doubles was organised with each round having a different scenario - attacking through a mountain pass (defender only got to use half their army), relief of a village, getting a convoy through, and a 'normal' game. Although some changes in balance between attacker and defender were required it was a very enjoyable and different tournament. Always wished it had been repeated.

Beer and dancing girls would obviously be an improvement.

[dave_r]

I think you should ask the Scottish chaps. By my reckoning there was eight additional players in the Scottish League this year.

They are obviously doing something right!

[philqw78]

I think, loathe though I am to say it, Alan is right. Scenarios. Providing everyone knows what the scenarios and rules for the scenario are nobody can complain, and they can make the games a very interesting and different challenge.
(I remember they did once promise us a scenario and campaign supplement and) I have been thinking about workable scenarios for a while.
I would suggest in a 4 game tournament: 1 normal, fair and open, battle; scenario 1 ; sceanrio 2; a final normal game.

Since I'm at it I'll put down my suggestions for scenarios
Surprise Attack
Scenario:
(Player who has initiative, Attacker) You have taken the initiative and whilst the enemy rests you have advanced as qucickly as possible upon the enemy encampment. You must take advantage of surprise and demoralise the enemy before he can react even though many of your forces have not yet arrived at the battlefield
(other player, Defender) The enemy has caught you by surprise whislt camped. You must rouse your troops into battle and defeat the enemy before his full force arrives
Game set up
Initiative, selecting and placing terrain as normal.
Deployment
Neither player is allowed to ambush or flank march
Defender:
Places camp, FF and whole army. Generals must all be deployed in contact with the camp. Other deployment restrictions as normal

All this players battle troops start the game fragmented and all light troops start the game disrupted

Attacker:
Deploys first 2 quarters of army by order of march by normal deployment rules and upto 2 generals, one of which must be the CinC
The remainader of the attacker's troops and generals are placed where they can be seen off table and they are declared, morale, type, capabilites, etc, to the opponent, as if they were on the table in a normal game. The attackers camp is not deployed at all during the game
Playing the game
Play then continues as normal
The extra rules are
Break and Attrition Points
Army Break Point is assessed for only those troops so far deployed on table.
Since the attacker has advanced quickly the army has become separated from its supplies. This means that, even though the attackers camp cannot be looted, the attacker starts and continues the game as having lost 1 extra AP.
For the defender most AP are already lost at the start of the game and must be recovered, the attackers break point will start low as most troops have not yet arrived.
Arrivals
At the start of each of the attacker's movement phases, until all BG are deployed, the attacker rolls 2D6 for each BG still off table, declaring to the opponent which BG is being diced for each time.
On a roll of 8 or greater that BG arrives anywhere on the players long table edge at the beginning of that phase (allowing it to move during the phase), but not within 6 MU of any enemy battle troops nor 4 MU of any enemy light troops
The roll is adjusted by +2 if the CinC is an IC, +1 if the CinC is an FC, + another one if an FC has still not been deployed.
The attacker may also place any general not yet deployed on table with any arriving battle group.


Scenario 2 next

[spike]

Since I'm at it I'll put down my suggestions for scenarios
Surprise Attack
Scenario:
(Player who has initiative, Attacker) You have taken the initiative and whilst the enemy rests you have advanced as qucickly as possible upon the enemy encampment. You must take advantage of surprise and demoralise the enemy before he can react even though many of your forces have not yet arrived at the battlefield
(other player, Defender) The enemy has caught you by surprise whislt camped. You must rouse your troops into battle and defeat the enemy before his full force arrives
Game set up
Initiative, selecting and placing terrain as normal.
Deployment
Neither player is allowed to ambush or flank march
Defender:
Places camp, FF and whole army. Generals must all be deployed in contact with the camp. Other deployment restrictions as normal

All this players battle troops start the game fragmented and all light troops start the game disrupted

Not sure you thought about one this Phil

If the defenders army has nothing but Battle troops, their army is broken at the start of the game, so the defender loses before the game even starts

Could I suggest that units with a general start the game as one morale category higher than other units, and that 1/4 of the defenders foot units (if drilled) start as steady - to represent the defensive picket.

S

[philqw78]

[Not sure you thought about one this Phil
If the defenders army has nothing but Battle troops, their army is broken at the start of the game, so the defender loses before the game even starts

Good they deserve to. What army has only battle troops on campaign? There are a few in the list books that can get away with it, but since you know the rules of the scenario before the competition you would have to be as dumb as a spike to design a list like that. (Thats what scenarios are for to make people think)

Could I suggest that units with a general start the game as one morale category higher than other units, and that 1/4 of the defenders foot units (if drilled) start as steady - to represent the defensive picket.*
S

No!

This would make the game far too easy for the defender. 4 disrupted BG moving forwards at full speed with at least 2 chances to bolster before they even get into effective shooting range, and another steady BG of battle troops and the lights almost ready to fight (oh, but after reading the scenario rules your army wouldn't have any lights and you would want the rules changed)

I don't think you thought it through Spike

*Battle troops don't spend the night on picket. The odd bloke does. This is a SURPRISE attack

The one thing I would think about changing is the deployment order so as to give the defender a little more wiggle room.

[philqw78]

Something like the defender can deploy 3 BG of light troops after the attacker has deployed.
The main problem I see with the scenario is that the attacker will not do enough damage before the defender is roused (bolstered). As Paul's tournaments is just for average Joes this shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Anyway, next scenario, Anvil and Hammer

shortly

[spike]

Phil
I think you will be surprised that I disagree with your analysis entirely

The big strength of the FoG system, is it plays very well within period- Themes make for good competitions.
So I think you will find Phil that quite a few armies within a theme have little or no choices, as by way of example, and as its to my left hand.... Storm of Arrows for example

from the beginning...
100 YW English (Continental): Max 6 LF with J/LS, and 4 LH with J/LS (V.poor)
100 YW English (Britain): Max 4 LH J/LS and No LF at all (v.v.Poor)
WotR: 4 LH J/LS but you can have lots of LF J/LS depending on which side you choose
Welsh: Does quite well, loads of LF
Scots (in Scotland): 12 LF with Bw (so Poor)
Scots on the Continent: (NONE so autobreak)
Scots Highlanders etc: 4 LF Bw (V.v.Poor)
Anglo-Irish: Lots like the Welsh

So if for example you have a British 14th C campaign competition on this basis, people would only bring the Irish and the Welsh, plus Yorkist Pretender. That's as bad as an open 650 comp full of Swiss


on that point.....I might suggest to Hamster he ban's all lists after 1422 for "pick and mix"

S

[philqw78]

I was on about scenarios. You are on or about a different planet

I'm not analysing anything, I'm giving a scenario. All of your examples could survive that scenario. But a scenario is like a theme. Players are told what can happen and then they can pick their list. Not rocket science.

But if you wanted a scenario for the HYW something differnet could and should be done.

Perhaps we should all stick our heads in the mud and do nothing different.

[philqw78]

Phil
I think you will be surprised that I disagree with your analysis entirely

no I won't

The big strength of the FoG system, is it plays very well within period- Themes make for good competitions.

Scenarios are adifferent sort of theme. Historical periods are another sort of theme.

So I think you will find Phil that quite a few armies within a theme have little or no choices, as by way of example, and as its to my left hand.... Storm of Arrows for examplefrom the beginning...

Oooh, what a fortunate coincidence, the army book with the least light troops.
Your definition of theme is very blinkered Spike.
What about the average Joe theme (any date any book) that Paul runs and asked for ideas to add interest? (the OP)
Perhaps they should play 800pts 1420-1480 NW Europe, 6x4, standard rules, because its a theme. Or they could try something different.
I think Spike you should open your mind a little
So anvil and hammer waits whilst Spike tries to say that playing fair and open battle at even points in a certain date range in a specific theatre of war from a single list book is the best way to play the GAME

[spike]

Your definition of theme is very blinkered Spike.

......even I think some of my ideas are are mad as a box of frogs, but then I know that....and that people also don't always agree with you.

On Scenario's, yes it's on appearance a nice idea, but the FoG rules were not designed to work that way, so you can't over use "FoW" style scenario rules, (which in my opinion don't always work because "Battlefront" didn't test them properly with all the options- but that's another story).

What I am suggesting is your nice idea's be toned down just a little, not much, there is some good stuff in there to fumble around with in this it needs development not rigidity.

If you keep wanting to "Flame" at me for disagreeing with you, then go ahead, my ego is notoriously impermeable and we can get shouted at by the moderators- or I can just give up on this and ignore what is actually in essence a good idea.

[petedalby]

and what would make new chaps attend?

Hi Paul - for me it's too far north and the wrong time of year - but I like your theme and if I was ever in your neck of the woods at the end of October I'd attend.

I always enjoyed the variable points format that Simon Hall ran at Rampage.....that might add a nice twist to your existing format?

[grahambriggs]

and what would make new chaps attend?

Hi Paul - for me it's too far north and the wrong time of year - but I like your theme and if I was ever in your neck of the woods at the end of October I'd attend.

I always enjoyed the variable points format that Simon Hall ran at Rampage.....that might add a nice twist to your existing format?

I'm also too far south to make it. Talking of Rampage though, they did do a DBM format for a while which was:

- first game starts as usual.
- games are a maximum of 3 hours 30 mins. No game to satrta after 4.45pm, all games stop at 5.30pm.
- as games finish on the first day, people are immediately paired up with another early finisher.
- on the second day, you're back to a morning game and an afternoon game as per usual.
- all games count toward scores

So the system very much encourages fast play and decisive games - I managed 7 one year. Hence it rewarded people whole brought decisive armies and played quickly.

[nikgaukroger]

and what would make new chaps attend?

Hi Paul - for me it's too far north and the wrong time of year - but I like your theme and if I was ever in your neck of the woods at the end of October I'd attend.

I always enjoyed the variable points format that Simon Hall ran at Rampage.....that might add a nice twist to your existing format?

I'm also too far south to make it. Talking of Rampage though, they did do a DBM format for a while which was:

- first game starts as usual.
- games are a maximum of 3 hours 30 mins. No game to satrta after 4.45pm, all games stop at 5.30pm.
- as games finish on the first day, people are immediately paired up with another early finisher.
- on the second day, you're back to a morning game and an afternoon game as per usual.
- all games count toward scores

So the system very much encourages fast play and decisive games - I managed 7 one year. Hence it rewarded people whole brought decisive armies and played quickly.

That was a great format, one of my favourite comps. Missed the first year it ran but played the second and got 6 games in over the weekend - IIRC one against you Mr Briggs with my Beja against your Christian Nubians

Simon's multiple lists of differing AP also worked pretty well IMO (maybe the odd tweak needed). Both worth repeating to increase variety.

[nikgaukroger]

On Scenario's, yes it's on appearance a nice idea, but the FoG rules were not designed to work that way,

FoG was designed to be perfectly playable with scenarios as well as historical refights (which face it are scenarios) and equal points competition games.

[nikgaukroger]

Always wished it had been repeated.

Then run it ...

[paullongmore]

I find designing and optimising by play the optimum list for a particular army enjoyable (yes I am sad but I am a wargamer so what else is new).

This then leads to people having an 800pt list which works them on a 6 by 4 table which they could potentially use in any non-themed comp ad infinitum. The lack of change leads to boredom and a decline in numbers at comps. One of the advantage of the 650pt format IMO is it favoured different armies to the 800pt format. Different troop and terrain densities.

When Britcon changed the table size all of a sudden people needed to re-optimise their armies. I couldn't get my Dom Rom swarm army to work at all on the smaller table. Even a small change like table size/ troop density makes us all start dusting off old armies and trying out new mixes of troops.

I like Phils suggested scenario as you would get a similar effect in spades. I was immediately thinking what impact it had on army composition.
As the defender my first thoughts are you would want 4 generals and less/ larger units so that bolstering has more effect.
As the attacker I want to make them test as soon as possible, trying to get a chain reaction on the fragged units, so bows or skirmishers.
But think how many battles it will take to optimise my army for both attacker and defender and standard.

Spikes point about immediately breaking is legitimate and maybe for example you let the C in C automatically suceed in his first bolster attempt and only check for army breaks from the end of the first round. I disagree with his assertion that FOG is not capable of handling scenarios.

I look forward to trying out this scenario and to Hammer and Anvil.