Belgium Morale Drop? Not Always?

[Blathergut]

If German invades Holland on turn 2 but does not conquer it, and the Allies invade Belgium on turn 2, Belgium suffers the morale drop. Yes?

But if German invades Holland on turn 2 and does conquer it, when the Allies invade Belgium on turn 2, Belgium does not suffer the morale drop. Yes?

[Blathergut]

And Holland works the same? If Allies invade and conquer Belgium turn 1, when Germany attacks Holland on turn 2 it faces full-strength units?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The rules are that Belgium and Holland are linked just like Denmark and Norway are linked. If you attack one of the linked countries then the other will mobilize at full strength unless it was also attacked on the same turn.

Norway and Denmark are linked to Sweden as well. If you attack Sweden, but not Denmark and Norway on the same turn then these countries won't be surprised and lose morale and start at reduced strength. Sweden can't be surprised and will always start at full strength with no morale loss if attacked.

A mobilized country will not be surprised and won't suffer a morale loss when attacked.

So it's probably a good idea to DOW both Belgium and Holland at the same time if you intend to attack one of these countries.

[Blathergut]

But why does it make a difference whether one is conquered or not in that first turn?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It doesn't matter whether you conquer Holland or not if you invade Belgium on the SAME turn. Then both countries will get the morale drop if the weather is fair.

[Blathergut]

Maybe it's this olde brain, but, that's not what I'm asking.

If one side invades either Belgium or Holland, and does not conquer it, if the other side invades the remaining country in their turn, they face reduced units. If the first side conquers in that first turn, the other side invades the other country and faces full units.

Why the difference?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Now I got what you meant. I checked the code and the code checks if the other linked country has surrendered or not. If it has surrendered then it has been attacked in a previous turn. That means the newly attacked country will spawn their forces at max strength.

If the linked country is NOT surrendered then that test won't trigger. That is a logical glitch, but we are probably not used to major powers like Germany struggling with conquering Belgium or Holland in 1 turn. They usually attack in fair weather.

It's also highly unlikely the Allies with DOW Belgium AFTER the Germans have invaded Holland. The only situation we have is that Germany will have to DOW Holland after an Allied Dyle. It's highly unlikely the Allies will fail to take Belgium in a turn 2 Dyle so your situation will almost never appear.

The problem is that I can't use the test if the linked country is at war because it will be even if you DOW the linked country on the same turn. The only way to fix it will be to store the DOW turn for all countries. That would invalidate save games and that is not a good idea.

Since country surrender happens at the end of a turn and after movement it means that a country flagged as surrendered must have been attacked in a previous turn.

[Blathergut]

So basicially, by invading Holland on turn 2, that effectively stops a Dyle? Or makes it much more difficult and uncertain. So not so doom and gloom as it seemed in Morris's game.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

So basicially, by invading Holland on turn 2, that effectively stops a Dyle? Or makes it much more difficult and uncertain. So not so doom and gloom as it seemed in Morris's game.

No. If you intend to make a 1940 Spring attack on Belgium you will end up with the Belgians at full strength without morale loss if you DOW Holland alone in turn 2. The Allies will certainly NOT make a Dyle if you DOW Holland before the Dyle starts. So you shoot yourself in the foot if you go after Holland without also going after Belgium the same turn.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The way I see it a turn 1 Dyle is out of the question with the altered 1939.scn file. A turn 2 Dyle is still possible, but you need mud weather on turn 3 to get away with it well. I tried to do a turn 2 Dyle as the Allies. If the weather was fair on turn 3 and the Axis had railed a mech and panzer unit to the west on turn 2 + transferring the Luftwaffe, then Antwerp and Liege fell easily to the Germans and Holland was cleared to Hague. I even had a chance to use an airstrike against a French mech in Belgium so it could be attacked by a corps and panzer unit.

If you get fair weather on turn 3 then the Allied player really needs mud on turn 4 and a massive UK ground unit support to hold the line pretty well until the Spring. France should fall pretty early from that position.

If turn 3 becomes mud then the Allies have the upper hand for awhile. The Germans can't get far into Holland and won't take Antwerp. The winter will be rough for the Germans.

As far as I can see the turn 2 Dyle will be good for the Allies if they get mud weather on turn 3 (25% chance) and not so good if they get fair weather on turn 3 (75% chance). Will Allied players be willing to risk a long setback from a Dyle for just a 25% chance getting an advantage. The advantage will not be big unless you get mud in both turn 3 and 4. That is 1 in 16 chance only.

I can still see aggressive players like Morris doing a turn 2 Dyle because it fits in their plans of bleeding the Germans using the UK forces as cannon fodder. However, I think the Axis player can get to Paris in time to do a decent Barbarossa in 1941. The best thing about the Dyle is that this strategy will disrupt the plans of the Axis player. The best Axis players can quickly adapt their plans and get the upper hand, but not all will be able to do so. E. g. you will be tested in breaking a narrow defense line during mud and winter.