I was happy to see direct mention of DS titles underway here at Slitherine.
Frankly, I think I am moving rapidly towards being a DS wargamer and less a PC wargamer.
Titles like Panzer Tactics and Age of Wonders Age of Kings as well as Steel Horizon are all solid pruchases, but they're just three games.
Now if you just disregard titles like Brothers in Arms, a nice game, but it's a shooter, and focus on titles that look like old school thinking wargaming, there are plenty of options to work with.
But are there so few people out there working on titles for the DS that over hundreds of games, I can only think of 3?
Ancients, Napoleonic, Civil War, heck even fantasy settings, I am plenty happy to get them all. I want them kept modest, but I sure would like to see more. Advance Wars Dual Strike is fun, but a bit too whimsical to do actual history.
I think the recently released Advanced Tactics over at Matrix Games looks like a possible port to DS. Someone needs to get ahold of Vic and see if he can produce something.
Is Slitherine alone in fielding DS wargames?
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lesthesarge
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
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lesthesarge
- Senior Corporal - Destroyer
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MrsWargamer
- 1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
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This topic needs more fresh air. So in the interests of giving it some.
Is it that the Nintendo DS, the hand held console that has sold already 70 Million units, the same console that can average a new release title some weeks at the pace of a new title daily, merely mistakenly perceived as ONLY a toy for kids?
Because that is indeed factually wrong.
Demographically, the Nintendo DS is as much a product for adults as it is a product for kids.
Now here's another surprising comment. I don't think the Nintendo DS is "better" then the Playstation Portable also called the PSP. It's just different. It has different powers options capacities.
But possibly the DS is seen more so as a kids toy? Is that the problem where getting MORE interest from software creators is concerned?
Why are we not seeing any commentary, or interest, from wargamers, in atypical wargaming venues, places of gathering, about getting MORE interest in bringing MORE military titles to the DS? (or the PSP for that matter).
And the usual comment, oh it would be too expensive, plllllease. Do at least a quick check on a site that features discussion on new releases for the DS. It becomes VERY clear, that the DS has games being made for it by the shovel load. Making a game for the DS is not a massive undertaking for wargaming any more than it is for the PC.
So I dump it right back in your lap. Why is there such a great reluctance on the part of wargaming to make wargames, real wargames, for the hand held?
If it is ONLY because no one sees the DS as a serious option for an adult wargamer, well cut that nonsense out!
Personally, I'm wondering if it isn't because we wargamers are too prone to want to put too much into the damn game when it's a PC offering. Maybe we're too stupid to figure out how to do Steel Panthers ala DS and intentionally leave out some types of vehicle. Maybe we can't contemplate something as simple as a game like The Operational Art of War but with only a few famous battles instead of every battle ever wargamed operationally.
I could believe that actually.
Panzer Tactics is a great game, and no easy one either. The first few playings of it I got my butt handed to me. And I'm a veteran wargamer. But the game is finite. I want more, a lot more. I want ancient era, modern era. I want squad tactical, and I want operational. I want grand strategy too.
I want to play something similar to Battlefront's Strategic Command.
I want to play something similar to HPS Squad Battles.
I am happy that Slitherine is in the process of making titles for the hand held. Maybe 5 years from now, Slitherine will be leading the way in hand held wargaming. It's not such a bad thing to think of.
But I'm a bit annoyed, that of ALL the known (to us at least) wargaming haunts (Wargamer, Armchair General, Gamestop, Matrix Games, Battlefront, Shrapnel Games, Blitz, there's gotta be more), it seems here is the only place talking about DS wargames.
It's not acceptable.
Is it that the Nintendo DS, the hand held console that has sold already 70 Million units, the same console that can average a new release title some weeks at the pace of a new title daily, merely mistakenly perceived as ONLY a toy for kids?
Because that is indeed factually wrong.
Demographically, the Nintendo DS is as much a product for adults as it is a product for kids.
Now here's another surprising comment. I don't think the Nintendo DS is "better" then the Playstation Portable also called the PSP. It's just different. It has different powers options capacities.
But possibly the DS is seen more so as a kids toy? Is that the problem where getting MORE interest from software creators is concerned?
Why are we not seeing any commentary, or interest, from wargamers, in atypical wargaming venues, places of gathering, about getting MORE interest in bringing MORE military titles to the DS? (or the PSP for that matter).
And the usual comment, oh it would be too expensive, plllllease. Do at least a quick check on a site that features discussion on new releases for the DS. It becomes VERY clear, that the DS has games being made for it by the shovel load. Making a game for the DS is not a massive undertaking for wargaming any more than it is for the PC.
So I dump it right back in your lap. Why is there such a great reluctance on the part of wargaming to make wargames, real wargames, for the hand held?
If it is ONLY because no one sees the DS as a serious option for an adult wargamer, well cut that nonsense out!
Personally, I'm wondering if it isn't because we wargamers are too prone to want to put too much into the damn game when it's a PC offering. Maybe we're too stupid to figure out how to do Steel Panthers ala DS and intentionally leave out some types of vehicle. Maybe we can't contemplate something as simple as a game like The Operational Art of War but with only a few famous battles instead of every battle ever wargamed operationally.
I could believe that actually.
Panzer Tactics is a great game, and no easy one either. The first few playings of it I got my butt handed to me. And I'm a veteran wargamer. But the game is finite. I want more, a lot more. I want ancient era, modern era. I want squad tactical, and I want operational. I want grand strategy too.
I want to play something similar to Battlefront's Strategic Command.
I want to play something similar to HPS Squad Battles.
I am happy that Slitherine is in the process of making titles for the hand held. Maybe 5 years from now, Slitherine will be leading the way in hand held wargaming. It's not such a bad thing to think of.
But I'm a bit annoyed, that of ALL the known (to us at least) wargaming haunts (Wargamer, Armchair General, Gamestop, Matrix Games, Battlefront, Shrapnel Games, Blitz, there's gotta be more), it seems here is the only place talking about DS wargames.
It's not acceptable.
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honvedseg
- Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:12 pm
- Location: Reading, PA, USA
DS
The problem with "console" games in general is that they are relatively short-lived compared to PCs. Sure, you need to "upgrade" a PC every 3-6 years, but you can still run most of the old programs on the new one. With a "boot disc", I can still run old DOS games from the mid '80s on my rather recent machine.
When a console maker decides to "move on", they usually abandon the old system completely, and you need to buy their "latest model", along with a whole new collection of games for it. That's fine for "instant gratification" type action titles, where you beat the game and then toss it or sell it, but not as well suited for the replayable strategy game market.
Besides, there are how many different console game platforms on the market? There is one overwhelmingly prevalent personal computer type on the market (PC), and a "small but significant" market share using a second type (Mac). That's it. One or two platforms to write for. Most of the console makers require a rather expensive license to develop titles for their machine, whereas writing for the PC is free, other than the cost of the software to do the programming and graphics, which you would need to buy for the console version anyway.
When a console maker decides to "move on", they usually abandon the old system completely, and you need to buy their "latest model", along with a whole new collection of games for it. That's fine for "instant gratification" type action titles, where you beat the game and then toss it or sell it, but not as well suited for the replayable strategy game market.
Besides, there are how many different console game platforms on the market? There is one overwhelmingly prevalent personal computer type on the market (PC), and a "small but significant" market share using a second type (Mac). That's it. One or two platforms to write for. Most of the console makers require a rather expensive license to develop titles for their machine, whereas writing for the PC is free, other than the cost of the software to do the programming and graphics, which you would need to buy for the console version anyway.
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MrsWargamer
- 1st Lieutenant - 15 cm sFH 18
- Posts: 823
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:17 pm
- Location: Canada
I understand what you are saying, it's just a lousy argument.
Ok lets look at it bit by bit.
There are only two hand helds worth mentioning. The Nintendo DS and the Playstation Portable.
We are not talking about non hand helds either, so remarking on the other non portable consoles is largely pointless.
The cost to upgrade a PC, is generally the same to buy the latest hand held variant. Thus, there is no defense based on the maker evolving to the next device of choice. If you can buy a new video card, you can buy a new hand held.
Backwards compatibility. You are not obligated to get rid of the previous hand held. It's not like it won't work. Just like you are not required to get rid of an older computer system. Sure you can't cram more than one hand held in a pocket. I also can't set up more than one computer in my hobby room.
Hand helds actually can play old games on new systems. Both the PSP and the DS can play older software.
And while a PSP can't play a DS game for the most part (that's not 100% true, but takes skill), a Mac doesn't always cohabit 100% with Windows (unless you know what you are doing).
As for shelf life, hmm I would be inclined to say that both categories have the same life span.
I expect to be able to play Panzer Tactics as long as I've been playing Steel Panthers.
But I can understand why a lot of console games and PC games come and immediately go. A lot of them are finite story driven experiences. You play it, it's over, you move on.
I've tried all the dodges with a PC for getting the most out of old games on newer systems.
What is often not said, is a lot of times old games simply are not worth the effort.
I finally managed to get my V4Victory wargames to play reliably through using Virtual PC. I get the correct OS, but I don't need to have any odd old harware. The wargames are still old looking though. In most cases, it's about nostalgia, and not my really wanting to play them.
Once a game is 5 years old, chances are its time is over. It's rare wargames retain a devoted following.
So now that I have ripped to shreds the argument that hand helds are just the wrong choice, lets move on to actually making wargames for the hand held.
It's not a crime to make a good wargame, and make it modest of scope and action.
It's also not a crime to make it and not have it subject to endless nit picking patching adjusting fussing over.
Actually, being able to make a wargame, and be able to say here it is, and KNOW that it won't be subjected to 3 years worth of players certain they know better than the designer how to make wargames, is not such a bad thing.
And if the designer makes a good title, I think it is likely not a bad thing if the designer realizes "hey they like it, I'll make some more". That generates income, and I don't resent a designer making good games, and making good money from making good games.
There is a reason no one is making wargames for the hand held much, and it's only because no one is asking for it to be done. Hand helds are not limited to quick action titles "just because". There's no rule that says hand helds can't be for serious well thought out challenging titles.
Your assertion of "There is one overwhelmingly prevalent personal computer type on the market' Did you honestly mean to suggest that computers all look the same? That's news to me. Likely news to software makers too. Multiple OSs, multiple versions of the same OS, multiple hardware configurations. Frankly a hand held being a finite environment is perhaps it's biggest selling point. Being able to make a game for it, and focusing all the effort on just making the game, and no effort wondering if it will run on an infinite variety of variables. It's amazing PC gaming lives some days.
Wargamers are their own worst enemy. They talk themselves into almost all of their problems, and they do it willingly.
Too expensive, hogwash. How many units of last years successful wargame titles sold? I wonder if any of them sold more units than were made of Panzer Tactics? I wonder how much time energy and hassle were lost to providing patches for those "successful" wargames. I have all of the wargames I can handle. I also know not one "great" wargame has been released without a flurry of patches in the first few months.
Most of those patches were avoidable.
Ok lets look at it bit by bit.
There are only two hand helds worth mentioning. The Nintendo DS and the Playstation Portable.
We are not talking about non hand helds either, so remarking on the other non portable consoles is largely pointless.
The cost to upgrade a PC, is generally the same to buy the latest hand held variant. Thus, there is no defense based on the maker evolving to the next device of choice. If you can buy a new video card, you can buy a new hand held.
Backwards compatibility. You are not obligated to get rid of the previous hand held. It's not like it won't work. Just like you are not required to get rid of an older computer system. Sure you can't cram more than one hand held in a pocket. I also can't set up more than one computer in my hobby room.
Hand helds actually can play old games on new systems. Both the PSP and the DS can play older software.
And while a PSP can't play a DS game for the most part (that's not 100% true, but takes skill), a Mac doesn't always cohabit 100% with Windows (unless you know what you are doing).
As for shelf life, hmm I would be inclined to say that both categories have the same life span.
I expect to be able to play Panzer Tactics as long as I've been playing Steel Panthers.
But I can understand why a lot of console games and PC games come and immediately go. A lot of them are finite story driven experiences. You play it, it's over, you move on.
I've tried all the dodges with a PC for getting the most out of old games on newer systems.
What is often not said, is a lot of times old games simply are not worth the effort.
I finally managed to get my V4Victory wargames to play reliably through using Virtual PC. I get the correct OS, but I don't need to have any odd old harware. The wargames are still old looking though. In most cases, it's about nostalgia, and not my really wanting to play them.
Once a game is 5 years old, chances are its time is over. It's rare wargames retain a devoted following.
So now that I have ripped to shreds the argument that hand helds are just the wrong choice, lets move on to actually making wargames for the hand held.
It's not a crime to make a good wargame, and make it modest of scope and action.
It's also not a crime to make it and not have it subject to endless nit picking patching adjusting fussing over.
Actually, being able to make a wargame, and be able to say here it is, and KNOW that it won't be subjected to 3 years worth of players certain they know better than the designer how to make wargames, is not such a bad thing.
And if the designer makes a good title, I think it is likely not a bad thing if the designer realizes "hey they like it, I'll make some more". That generates income, and I don't resent a designer making good games, and making good money from making good games.
There is a reason no one is making wargames for the hand held much, and it's only because no one is asking for it to be done. Hand helds are not limited to quick action titles "just because". There's no rule that says hand helds can't be for serious well thought out challenging titles.
Your assertion of "There is one overwhelmingly prevalent personal computer type on the market' Did you honestly mean to suggest that computers all look the same? That's news to me. Likely news to software makers too. Multiple OSs, multiple versions of the same OS, multiple hardware configurations. Frankly a hand held being a finite environment is perhaps it's biggest selling point. Being able to make a game for it, and focusing all the effort on just making the game, and no effort wondering if it will run on an infinite variety of variables. It's amazing PC gaming lives some days.
Wargamers are their own worst enemy. They talk themselves into almost all of their problems, and they do it willingly.
Too expensive, hogwash. How many units of last years successful wargame titles sold? I wonder if any of them sold more units than were made of Panzer Tactics? I wonder how much time energy and hassle were lost to providing patches for those "successful" wargames. I have all of the wargames I can handle. I also know not one "great" wargame has been released without a flurry of patches in the first few months.
Most of those patches were avoidable.