Grand Campaign East 43-impossible

[joe6778]

I breeze through the 1939-1942 Campaigns, but when I reach Grand Campaign East 1943, I can't win anything but a marginal victory and by the time I reach July,1943 my prestige is down to nothing and my core units are being decimated. I started the 1943 East Campaign with 7900 prestige points. By July 1943 I upgraded my 5 fighter to FW190s, I have a variety of units including a couple of Tigers and Panther tanks, and I'm playing on Colonel difficulty(!)

I'm no stranger to wargames and I've played most of the Panzer General series, but the East campaigns for Panzer Corps beginning in 1943 are impossible for me. There are neverending Russian units and counter-attacks, and all of their units are overstrength including extremely strong heavy tanks. How can they have so much prestige to build units when I've been winning decisively up to now?

Please tell me how I can beat these campaigns because I can't advance past 1943. I'm totally frustrated and ready to give up.

BTW- I already beat the core game a few times.

[VPaulus]

You could take a look at Deducter's great Video AAR :
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=35650

[Dragoon.]

Sounds like you had possibly some serious losses and suffering from not experienced enough troops. I usually finish building my entire core force in DLC '40. My trick is to buy new units as soon one of my current units hit the exp .cap. I do this until I think have enough. Like 14 tanks, 16 arty and so on. In my last two playthroughs east campaign I went with 9 fighters and 5 fighter-bombers. All at max exp. and with at least on hero in '42. Leveling up a recruit fighter or tank in '40-'42 is easy, but a in '43 and on it's a hail-mary. Facing shock troops like Guard units in T-34-85 is no fun and very costly even with the most advanced but fresh units.

I cannot stress enough the importance of artillery, artillery and again artillery. Although throw in a few strategic bombers for the mean IS-2 tanks later. An overstrength He-177 can strip these tanks down literally to the last round. ;p. If you subtract the SE-units my artillery force is even larger than my tanks force.
I almost never attack without having suppressed my target prior. I rather skip a turn if I must too. If they can't shoot back then can't hurt you. This means less losses, less prestige spent, tanks keep their overstrength longer, which again means less prestige spent. As bonus my tanks are continuously protected by artillery which in most cases cause the AI from refraining to attack me. Again this saves me losses and prestige. Next turn I stun and destroy them instead.

I also try to maximize certain stats. Tanks and AT-tanks with defense heroes become Tiger or Elephants. That way you can create almost impregnable steel fortress especially if overstrength. Tanks with initiative bonus must become Panther tanks. A perfect weapon to hit targets that didn't got get fully suppressed by your artillery. I have many battles where my overall losses are less than 10 strength points. The units that take the most beating is my air force. Which caused me to become more and more conservative with them. My arty almost take never losses. Especially once I get ranged heroes to first strike enemy arty, but my tactical bombers always get hit sooner or later by AA-fire.

[joe6778]

I obviously don't get a lot of the nuances of the strategy, but my core is maxed out and I have an assortment of units, heavy with tanks and Pionere infantry for the entrenchments/cities. I have quite a few ARTY, but with limits on the number of units in my core, how can I have enough units to ward off all the Soviet counterattacks? I keep my ARTY in support of my units on defense, but it's still not enough- not only do the Soviets wear my units down when they're at their overstrength limit, but then I don't have enough prestige to replace them when they get damaged. I have a Strategic bomber, three Tac bombers, about five of six fighters, one or two AA units in addition to the tanks and INF, but I gave up when I saw how many enemy units were still on the map and I still had to take three more cities for a marginal win.

In DLC '41 and '42, I can hold the Soviet waves off and get mostly decisive victories, but '43 is impossible. I can imagine what later campaigns look like.

The '43 Grand Campaign starts with 7000 prestige if I don't continue with my core, but I began it with my core (36 units) and 7900 prestige, and I still got mauled. And like I said, I'm playing on Colonel difficulty. My air units can kill anything they attack, but it seems like the Soviets have about 20 air units, 50 INF, and 30 tanks to my 30-40 units.

[KeldorKatarn]

Welcome to the eastern front my friend

[Victor_K]

I hear your pain. Go to the AAR section and watch Deducter"s ARR videos. Especially your 1943 DLC. I think you will be surprised how well you can get through the scenarios.

[captainjack]

It took a few goes before I could cope with 43 East even at Colonel, but on the last run through (after a long break from it) it didn't seem that bad, and I even got about half way through 44East. Then the latest Panzer Corps version came out and I ended up restarting in 1939 on General. I had done a pretty good job of collecting and keeping the captured units which meant I could cash in unwanted units to cover upgrades and use obsolete captured French tanks with 3* and a hero or two to upgrade to combat-ready Tigers and Panthers. Even half way through 44East I pretty much had the latest version of everything worth upgrading, mainly at 3 or 4* and a float of 20,000 prestige plus a decent sized reserve force of obsolete 2* and 3* units in case I had a bad day.

I think that the main difference to my play was better prestige management in terms of being better at weighing up the benefits of upgrades and taking account of heros when upgrading to get the most out of your upgraded unit (there's some good advice on that in recent discussions) and also in being more willing to pull a damaged unit out of combat early, leaving it in the rear so I could reinforce in play if needed but otherwise I could wait until between games when elite reinforcement is cheaper. Also, I had a reasonable success rate in developing new units without them getting too badly mangled (they were allowed to mop up damaged units or attack fully suppressed units but otherwise they were kept at the back - slow but reasonably reliable.

[joe6778]

Is there any place(s) where I can learn more about the nuances of strategy and tactics for Panzer Corps? I've read the manual and played many scenarios, but I believe I'm still missing a lot: i.e., some tricks and tips, when to upgrade, the benefits of particular units, etc.

The AAR videos I've seen don't really explain why they're taking certain actions with certain units.

I guess I'm looking for more comprehensive tutorial videos or strategy guides.

[timek28]

@joe6778

I believe the best tactic is the one you develop over the time. If someone else is teaching you how to play is probably not as fun as you trying yourself what works best for you. In reality there are probably at least several good tactics to win battles, although a balanced core is probably the best way to go. So unless you are a complete newbie in this types of games I would avoid help and tutorials, and try things myself. It sure takes some time, but it feels better when you achieve improvements.

[joe6778]

I've had much experience with the Panzer General series and Panzer Corps and I do quite well in the Grand Campaigns up to 43 East. That's why I need some more tips on strategy and tactics to be able to advance since I can't do well in this campaign.

[timek28]

Hmm...

I have played GC East 43 a few months back... I remember a first few missions being tough as you are both on defense AND offense. The point being in first Kharkov mission was (if I remember correctly) to hold the line on east and conquer positions north-west. Both fronts should be kept with strong artillery and air support and armor in front line. Also from 43 on infantry is not that important or effective against Soviet swarming armor (even in cities) (maybe 1.14 patch changes that?). So it's better to have tanks in core than infantry. A few infantry units should be enough. If played on colonel level this is quite doable - Also decent number of aircraft (4-5 fighter and same amount of bombers) and at least 4-6 artillery is also a must.

Static defense positions on east are best held with Tigers while conquering and fast maneuvering should be done with Panthers on north west. Always try to form a closed front with decent artillery support while advancing north west, and before attacking head on with tanks always bombard from the air enemy armor first. From 43 Soviet armor becomes a real challenge (SU and ISU AT units are not to be underestimated as well as T34-43 and 85s) and head on duels are not best solution. So first give them good pounding with Me410s (if you are able to get them) , Hs129 or Ju87Gs ( I'm not sure if they are available before Kursk), If not use Ju87Ds or whatever you have in core. Just make sure to take several SPs of the enemy armor before engaging it with your armor. Of course to do this you should clear skies of enemy aircraft first - so this should be a first priority. Fw190s are a must. Upgrade ASAP from Bf109s.

After aerial bombardment, attack them with your artillery and then Panthers. Also on east hold all potential crossings on (Dniepr?). Don't let any AI units cross. Destroy their bridge engineers ASAP, and destroy their artillery with your aircraft so they cannot bombard you over the river. If done properly AI will try to cross the river brute forcing it, but it will get swept turn after turn by being ambushed by your well placed units.

Always go for elite replacements between missions (unless you are really low on prestige). In the mission go for replacements only if you must (elite of course). If not absolutely important save the unit in the back for cheaper refitting after the mission.

That is all I can say since unfortunately I cannot remember any other mission from 43 besides Kharkov and Kursk.

[Dragoon.]

If you want, upload your save to have your core force reviewed.
Also I think you can figure out the game by yourself if you closely study all information the game gives you.
Except for the RNG (although I think the problem with the RNG lies more on my side ), the game has a pretty solid underlying mathematically foundation, and it's not that complex. See it as an equation you have to solve. Just require knowledge of most of the data and a little bit thinking.
Memorize the different terrain types initiative caps. Here an example how this can help you.
Several times in the campaign you will have inferior auxiliary units defending various locations. Usually you won't be able to hold the line with them, but if properly used certainly delay the enemy long enough for a relief force to arrive. You may have a 5cm AT-gun at your disposal facing incoming enemy tanks. You could place your gun in a forest, hill or clear hex. The clear hex offers no defense but has no initiative cap either. The forest offer more entrenchment as the hill, but the hill has a higher initiative cap of 5 versus 2. Seeing the 5cm AT gun has an actually initiative value of 5, placing it on the hill means you can use your guns capability to full extend, while denying the enemy the benefit of his superior weapons range. In contrast to a clear hex the enemy would had out gunned you. Causing losses before even have a change to fire back. Now you got at least a chance to shoot back and do better against infantry assaults. I think only late paratroopers have an initiative of 5. Most medium infantry won't go higher than 3. Russian conscripts and SMG Inf. even have 0 and 1. Of course here come the dice rolls to make your day.

Take a close look at your units stats. Specifically ground defense, initiative, hard attack, soft attack and sight range. Make some secondary notes about fuel and ammo.
Remember the '41 DLC scenario Vyazma? There you have for the first time the chance to upgrade your Pz IIIH to Pz IIIJ. For 12 more prestige you can get 1 point more in ground defense. Sounds good? No, because your fuel reserve drops from 41 to 36. Especially in this scenario time is of the essence, as you have to cover a large area fast, if you want to conquer the outskirts of Moscow in time for a DV. However in the next scenario the additional 1 point in GD is truly appreciated.

Don't forget to study enemy stats too. Notice how conscripts and SMG infantry, most AT-guns and AT-tanks have only a sight range of 1. Use this to gather your forces outside the spotting range. Next round attack in force. Suppress them, encircle them to deny them retreat opportunities and for the mass attack penalty. Then destroy them with minimal effort and loses.
Or abuse their 1 hex spotting range to ambush or lure them into a trap. If no other units does the spotting for them they cannot see a unit behind your own. For example an defending artillery. Present a juicy target something with a comparable low ground defense rating to bait the enemy into an attack.
Against infantry this tactic not only works very well, but also can be exploited further. The A.I. is far to willing to abandon defensible positions and often city/victory hexes too, for the chance of a cheap attack. Then watch how they are in for a nasty surprise.
"Oh look, a lonely artillery unit. Stupid humans! That's why A.I's will take over the world. Now lets murder this one. Oh, what is that? Two units of rocket artillery! Nooooooo..."
But when pulling this off make sure you know the outcome before and your surroundings. You don't want be counter surprised by a not previously spotted KV tank.

Other things to check. For example your and the enemy artillery hard attack values, and then compare them with your and the enemy tank ground defense values. This will give you an impression of the vulnerability of each tank to certain artillery calibers. That way you can tell how efficient a tank is to absorb an artillery strike, and how many attacks on average it will take to archive at least 75% suppression. The rest can be dealt via initiative if you're mercilessly following a minimal losses strategy. This will help you to deploy necessary assets at the right location.

Carefully study the combat log of each fight to understand the outcome and mechanics that stand behind them. See how flanking panthers can outgun enemy tanks. How big the actual effect of experience and overstrength is on combat results. How Tiger and Elephant tanks are able to absorb artillery strikes one after an other.
If you have an arty with high ground defense behind them (to absorb potential enemy arty strikes) they become excellent city defenders. They can't get easily suppressed even if all entrenchment it gone. Infantry of course has no initiative cap on close terrain and rolls against close defense instead the ground defense value, but look at the stats.
Most 15cm arty guns have 12 soft attack and 9 hard attack. Most infantry units level out at 8 ground defense. Just compare this. Arty 12 soft attack versus infantry 8 ground defense tells you they can't hold the line forever. Eventually entrenchment will be gone, they get surrounded, suppressed and then even defensive arty won't prevent their inevitable surrender. Now compare a Tiger tank with 23 ground defense against an arty's 9 hard attack. As long the Tiger defensive artillery stays operational, and you have some kind of AA protection, no enemy is going get past this tank. The AI just lacks the skill to do the necessary massive bombardment to either take out the arty or suppress the tank. They will rather try to move around your tank. As long your flanks are covered either by your units, or by natural features like a river, this will going nowhere. It really get funny once their units start to stack up in front of you because of this. Allowing you to destroy entire units with a single attack because they are blocking each other retreat routes. Because of this I find most DLC '44 scenarios easier than the DLC '40 scenarios. If there is a major river on the map, that is the place to make a stand and watch the slaughter. If in doubt to deploy infantry or and additional tank always go with a tank. That the game is call Panzer Corps should give enough of a hint. Because outside close terrain a tank can always make a stand against enemy armor and is not vulnerable during transition. With arty, which you should have anyway it can take cities too. Most of the benefit infantry has in close terrain lies on the chance to shoot back, but if they are suppressed their options are reduced to dying or retreat.

Well, enough of this rambling wall of text. Jesus who is going to read this crap anyway?

[robman]

When I first started playing PzC, I started with the GC. Things went well until GC '43. I made it through '43 (on FM), but by early '44 I had such a weakened core and so little prestige that I abandoned the campaign and returned to the beginning. On the second playthrough (still on FM), '43 was much less difficult, '44 was surprisingly easy, and '45 (thus far) is so easy that it's getting boring. So what did I do differently?

(1) I now use elite reinforcements--always. I use "green" reinforcements only if the wounded unit is so green that there is no real difference, as when a unit takes heavy losses early in the first scenario in which it is deployed.

(2) Beginning in the first Kursk scenario, I started overstrengthening all of my units to the max. It worked so well that I never stopped.

(3) I stopped rushing. Slow and steady wins the race in most scenarios. I have learned not to move one or two units well ahead of support into areas that contain (or might contain) a large number of enemy units, but instead to wait until all or most of their supporting units are ready to move as well.

(4) By '43, my infantry will consistently survive only in close terrain and when backed by artillery. I still use infantry--they remain quite useful in scenarios with difficult or urban terrain--but when they have to move in the open, I protect them with armor.

(5) I keep my armor out of close terrain if at all possible. It is usually possible. Even in maps dominated by close terrain, there are clear hexes dotted here and there.

(6) Watch ammo levels. It is better to forego an attack and resupply, than to be caught with no ammo left. This is especially important for infantry and for artillery, which can fire defensively more than once during the opponent's turn.

(7) In most scenarios, you are subjected to a massive attack or counterattack at some point. When that happens, I stop advancing, take up good defensive positions, and wait until the attack ebbs before continuing. As a general rule, when facing large attacks by mixed infantry and armor, I have found the best defensive positions to be: (a) infantry: in close terrain facing close terrain, and (b) armor: in open terrain facing close terrain. Forcing the enemy into close terrain is advantageous because the benefits for his infantry are outweighed by the disadvantages for his armor.

[hs1611]

Well, enough of this rambling wall of text. Jesus who is going to read this crap anyway?

I did and agree completely!!

[deducter]

I'm not sure my videos are very helpful for the new/intermediate level players. The advice in this thread and other similar threads is likely more useful for that. The simple answer is, lots of good fighters, artillery, and heavy armor will allow you to succeed.

However, I show that it is quite possible to do well with a more "historical" core, although the core I have in the videos is still much too good relative to the state of the average German motorized formation in 1943+. So GC43East, however difficult it may seem, is not impossible.

I think my videos provide the most insight for FM/Rommel+ players. I assume the player has a good understanding of all game mechanics and I demonstrate some of the more subtle tricks. Given the length of the videos, I'm not inclined to narrate the same trick again and again, otherwise they would be much longer. Another reason is that in the late war, I often have to pause in between turns to think, otherwise, you'll simply watch 10-20 minute stretches where nothing happens (as can be seen in some of the earlier GC43East videos). The advanced tactics are usually non-obvious, and that's why I have to think so long.

[joe6778]

Thanks for all the tips and advice. And I'll keep watching the videos.

For the most part, I'm already doing a lot of the things suggested. But I went back to '41 Grand Campaign and I'm paying more attention to terrain my units are in and seeing if I can do things differently that will help me in the later campaigns.

One problem I have with the system since Panzer General 1 is that most scenarios are won and lost by taking cities as quickly as possible; nothing is gained by eliminating the enemy. In '43 East, regardless of how many Russians I destroy, they have many more units to spare including strong defenses around the cities I have to take for the DV, and I run out of time and units to finish the job. In '42 East, the Stalingrad scenarios are brutal and drain a lot of prestige for the '43 Campaign.

[brettz123]

I think it is pretty important to destroy units so they don't hang around and cause you damage. You should post your CORE so we can actually critique it for you. My guess is that your CORE might need some upgrading or you are actually taking a lot of damage. Also you don't want an overly large CORE either because it dilutes the experience each unit can get (and less heroes).