Poland Campaign

[LandMarine47]

So who wants to help me on a Polish Campaign? You don't need moderating Skills like Amaris Richcat and GL88's. just a simple Campaign. Name? Blitz Poland. For the Germans They should have mainly Panzer 2 and 3's and sometimes IV's. Basic Blitz France details. The Poles should get French Equipment. So Blitz Poland and France won't have a difference except the Poles only get R35 Tanks. The battles I want should be Westerplate (Danzig) Vistula River Crossing. Warsaw and other I didn't Mention. A short Campaign with some 5 or 6 Mission (Oh and Germans get Naval Artillery for Westerplate lol) If you want to help me contact me well get started soon after. Thanks LM
UPDATE some of you may think it'll be to easy. WRONG the Germans may beat the Polish Tanks but it will be a HARD fight against the Polish Infantry. Their disadvantage? They are too spread out. I remember in the D-Day spec ops campaign a unique command when an infantry unit is stranded it loses morale unless it sees more friendlies. The Poles will have strong AT and minefields it won't be a walk in the park for your infantry and your Panzers won't get far without infantry support. Germans will have lots a Stukas and at Danzig Naval artillery! (Unless I put in one of Gl88's Destroyers). Germans lack in Heavy Support so don't expect MG 42's and Mortars (or 150MM for that matter). They will travel mostly in small groups of 251's and Truck Convoys. Make sure you have scouts or you might lose an entire convoy. Since this is the Blitzkrieg your Tanks will mostly always be surrounded by infantry. Wether you try to suppress them and wait for infantry or Race ahead it's your choice. (Remember isolation counts for your boys too!) The poles will have mostly regulars and Home Guards. But they still have a decent amount of MG's and AT guns. Mortars will be scarce but they will pack a punch when they're around.
While you will be restricted to German Regulars MG 34's and engineers everyone and a while. (Your gonna need them at Vistula cause' the bridge is blown) At Westerplate you'll be using Italian Infantry (lol) because the Germans were untrained Military Police with elements of the Germans Kreigsmarine (Italian Spec Ops) Westereplate will be the first (and hardest) mission considering your going against Polish Regulars with MG's Mortars, At Guns, and Minefields. (Lots of fortifications). Don't worry you have Medic and Rally (Kreigsmarine will land at some-point in the game) and LOTS of Italian Infantry. Ill let you have 3 Bridges but each will be set to blow according to how heavily defended each Bridge is. So use your Destroyer quick because you may not get another chance to get across and you lose 4 Turns for having to build another bridge (Italian Engineers) that's about it for now but that's for more "clarification"

[Ranger]

I've studied the 1939 German Invasion of Poland, off and on, for years. There really isn't much of a comparison between the 1939 invasion of Poland and the 1940 invasion of France. Poland mobilizied their forces the day before the invasion (because France and England begged them not to "antagonize" the Germans. They fought tooth and nail, on three fronts, against the Germans and the Soviets, and lasted almost two months. The French and BEF had 8 - 9 months to prepare their defenses, on one front, against one enemy, and lasted maybe two weeks. (Italy's "invasion" of southern France was an absolute joke.)
The Germans didn't have the tank army in 1939 it had in later years. There weren't any IV's in 1939. Most of the German infantry walked. Almost all of the German artillery was horse drawn.
Had Poland ignored the British and French, and mobilized weeks/month before the invasion, it's very likely that the Germans and the Soviets would have had their asses (arses) handed to them by the very competent and comparetively/relatively well equiped Polish Army in September 1939.

Which battles did you have in mind?

Cheers,

Thomas

[dickesKind]

Hello Thomas,

There weren't any IV's in 1939

Well, here some photos of "IV's" during the invasion of Poland

Had Poland ignored the British and French, and mobilized weeks/month before the invasion, it's very likely that the Germans and the Soviets would have had their asses (arses) handed to them by the very competent and comparetively/relatively well equiped Polish Army in September 1939.

I wonder what literature you studied for years making you think it would have been that easy
Poland began to partially mobilize its army in March 1939. Poland had less infantry divisions wich where poorly equipped. Even with more time to mobilize 800 polish light tanks would have had to fight 2400 german light and medium tanks. The motorization of the polish army was even poorer than the germans. The Luftwaffe had more than twice as much planes as the polish air force - and the german planes where modern. The polish navy was inferior and literaly destroyed two days after the beginning of the campaign. German infantry was very well trained and their doctrines where groundbreaking and modern. And comparing the "competence" of the german and the polish army is - sorry - a joke.

Greetings...

[rf900]

I should focus on the Bulge German campaign, but I am interested in this also. I understand you want to play as Germans, we could after made another version from the Poland side. I have experience with scripting and squad modification but not with art design. From your description seems BA already includes all the units you want to use, we could tweak the squads file to better represent the Polish infantry and some other values to give more variety and fidelity to historic situation.

I would like to make use of the carryover mechanic in which some units that survive can be used in the following scenario.

Will start reading more about that period.

[LandMarine47]

I had in mind my favorite Westerplate, Warsaw, Vistula River, and any others if I do my homework .
Well rf900 I'd would appreciate help. Use your free time on the Bulge I'm sure me and Ranger will figure this out!

[LandMarine47]

Funny you should say that'd dickesKind because the Polish held off the Germans at Westerplate for 7 days. Under attack by professional German Kriegsmarines and Naval Artillery they would have held longer but the commander surrendered because the wounded began to get infections due to low supplies. There's is no doubt the Poles would have held longer if the Soviets hadn't attacked.

[dickesKind]

Funny you should say that'd dickesKind because the Polish held off the Germans at Westerplate for 7 days.

The commander of the Westerplatte remembered later, that at the end of day two of the campaign the polish soldiers where so demoralised, that they would not have been able to repell a german infantry attack. But the Germans did not attack - they continued the bombardment of the Westerplatte for five days until the polish soldiers surrendered. So after day 1 there was not that much for the polish garrison to "hold of" - they endured the heavy german bombardment, which is remarkable.

[LandMarine47]

Hmmmm I may need to contact Amaris for advanced scripts to make German Calvary (Regular Troops just with horses and 24 AP) But that I didn't know. But 7 days were along time for these Polish Troops. Hitlers first Humiliation. Through these days a failed German Firebomb attacked failed when the driver jumped to early to do any significant damage. But on the 7th Day with next to all fortifications destroyed the Poles had no choice but to surrender. And Stukas will be 1 Turn cool down and Poles will have Belhiems from the RAF. (At Vistula and Warsaw) Hurricanes at Westerplatte.

[Ranger]

Hello Thomas,

There weren't any IV's in 1939

Well, here some photos of "IV's" during the invasion of Poland

Had Poland ignored the British and French, and mobilized weeks/month before the invasion, it's very likely that the Germans and the Soviets would have had their asses (arses) handed to them by the very competent and comparetively/relatively well equiped Polish Army in September 1939.

I wonder what literature you studied for years making you think it would have been that easy
Poland began to partially mobilize its army in March 1939. Poland had less infantry divisions wich where poorly equipped. Even with more time to mobilize 800 polish light tanks would have had to fight 2400 german light and medium tanks. The motorization of the polish army was even poorer than the germans. The Luftwaffe had more than twice as much planes as the polish air force - and the german planes where modern. The polish navy was inferior and literaly destroyed two days after the beginning of the campaign. German infantry was very well trained and their doctrines where groundbreaking and modern. And comparing the "competence" of the german and the polish army is - sorry - a joke.

Greetings...

A "joke"? Really? I don't think any German veteran, who is/was honest, and actually saw combat/action in the 1939 Polish Campaign would agree with you. The soldiers who made up the forth largest Allied army were anything but a joke (almost all of them were veterans of the 39 invasion). The Polish pilots of the Kosciusko Squadron (RAF 303) who, if I am not mistaken, shot down more German aircraft, during the Battle of Britain, than any other Allied fighter squadron, were no joke. Oh and the first aircraft shot down, in air-to-air combat, in WW2 were a German Stuka and 2 German Do17's. They were shot down within minutes of each other, around dawn on the first day of the German invasion, by two Polish "clown" fighter pilots flying obsolete Polish PZLP 11 fighters (I mean "light aerial clown transports).

A lot of the ideas Guderian and others had for their "Blitzkrieg", were "shared" or came from articles and essays written by Polish officers that were published in Polish Military journals (Sosabowski and others).

Oh, and the German invasion of Poland was no "Blitzkrieg". The Germans didn't have enough trucks and tanks for a "Blitzkrieg".

I stand corrected, the Germans had at least three IV's in Poland in 1939.

oh yeah, your right, the fully mobilizied Germans were superior "in every way" to the inferior non-mobilized Polish (says I with much sarcasm).

The "secret" Polish mobilization, that began in March 1939, was miniscule and insignificant because of the intense diplomatic pressure from the French and British.

I didn't say anything would have been easy. What I said was, had the Poles been fully mobilized, they would have killed many many more Germans and Soviets than the many they did actually kill. Also, it's possible that, had the Poles held out longer against the German invasion, the Soviets may have been dissuaded from invading from the east, and the British and French would have been forced to engage Germany from the west.

One of my sources is the U.S. Army after action report and review of the German Polish 1939 campaign. Published after the war. Based on interviews of the surviving participants and captured documents etc. The U.S. Army wasn't so interested in this campaign because the Germans did such a great job in invading Poland. The U.S. Army was interested because of the truely remarkable defense of the Polish.

It's not the toys and tools and new shinny equipment that makes any army a good one. It's the men who deploy them. A superior armed force that is inferiorly equipped, can beat an superiorly equipped and inferior one any day of the week. Just ask the Argentinian Army that survived the 1982 Falklands War, or the Arabs and Egyptians.

BTW, Apology conditionally accepted pending retraction of "joke" comment.

Cheers,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Very good report Ranger. But Poland still lost...... I'm here to make a mod about the battles not teach people about it now if you want to help and teach us at the same time give us units we should use and background info about them! There now we are both happy
Ill add that very EXCELLENT report on the Campaign on the Victory Screen upon winning this rather challenging campaign. (Prepare to use Italians for the first few missions. Then you get Regulars. But the Poles will be fortified and I'm adding a "Counter Attack" Mission so the Germans get to defend their gains. But I REALLY want Calvary Units anyone know how to script them?) So from now on if you want to post history/background info PLEASE at least give me some ideas in the post! Thanks LM

[dickesKind]

LM,
sorry for spaming your thread. But you understand, that I have to reply on Rangers post



Hello Thomas,

I don't think any German veteran, who is/was honest, and actually saw combat/action in the 1939 Polish Campaign would agree with you.

I have contact with five german veterans who fought in Poland. No one says this campaign was a "joke" for them - neither did I.

I said this is a joke:

Had Poland ignored the British and French, and mobilized weeks/month before the invasion, it's very likely that the Germans and the Soviets would have had their asses (arses) handed to them by the very competent and comparetively/relatively well equiped Polish Army in September 1939.

I never called the polish soldier into question.
That the first aircraft losses where german ... well, this means what? That the polish soldiers was supperior? Or just, that the first aircraft losses where german and nothing else. Other polish airmen died in their planes as well before their country capitulated.

A lot of the ideas Guderian and others had for their "Blitzkrieg", were "shared" or came from articles and essays written by Polish officers that were published in Polish Military journals (Sosabowski and others).

Oh, and the German invasion of Poland was no "Blitzkrieg". The Germans didn't have enough trucks and tanks for a "Blitzkrieg".

I never said the Germans where ones who invented all ideas.
I never said, it was a "Blitzkrieg" or the Germans had enough trucks and tanks for a Blitzkrieg.

I stand corrected, the Germans had at least three IV's in Poland in 1939.

Sounds different to:

There weren't any IV's in 1939.

Now to this:

oh yeah, your right, the fully mobilizied Germans were superior "in every way" to the inferior non-mobilized Polish (says I with much sarcasm).

Please quote the line where I said, that "the fully mobilizied Germans were superior "in every way" to the inferior non-mobilized Polish". Sarcasm does not help here.

The "secret" Polish mobilization, that began in March 1939, was miniscule and insignificant because of the intense diplomatic pressure from the French and British.

I don't know enough about this to argue here. You may be right.

I didn't say anything would have been easy. What I said was, had the Poles been fully mobilized, they would have killed many many more Germans and Soviets than the many they did actually kill. Also, it's possible that, had the Poles held out longer against the German invasion, the Soviets may have been dissuaded from invading from the east, and the British and French would have been forced to engage Germany from the west.

Well, actually you said:

Had Poland ignored the British and French, and mobilized weeks/month before the invasion, it's very likely that the Germans and the Soviets would have had their asses (arses) handed to them by the very competent and comparetively/relatively well equiped Polish Army in September 1939.

You wrote:

It's not the toys and tools and new shinny equipment that makes any army a good one. It's the men who deploy them. A superior armed force that is inferiorly equipped, can beat an superiorly equipped and inferior one any day of the week.

I never called this into question. In this point I agree with you. And I also have other examples for this in my head: Wars for scotish independence, Fallschirmjäger on Crete, Vietcong in the 60s. As I said, I agree here and never called this into question.

BTW, Apology conditionally accepted pending retraction of "joke" comment.

My english skills seem to end here
If I understand you right: You would accept it as an apology if I would retract my "joke" comment?
Well, I want to retract the "joke comment" and want to correct myself: stating that comparing the competence of both armies is a "joke" was wrong.
But I personally see no circumstances under which the "polish army would have handed their asses (arses)" to the Wehrmacht or Red Army.

Peace and chill!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epeQwq-aYV0

[LandMarine47]

Lets just stop the "Historical Argument" Please. Before Pip has to get in this thread and clam us down. Back to the point please.

[dickesKind]

Just drink your cup of tea
Everything is cool and we will stop discussing here and will continue - if necessary - via PM.
Do your Polish campaign. I look forward to play it

[LandMarine47]

Still looking for someone to acctually make the maps! Us iOS users can't make maps If we could I would already have Itlay and Norway set up.....
PS nice rock viedo. Adding Wizna to the Campaign

[Ranger]

Apology accepted.
I'm "Peacing and Chilling."
All is good and sorted.

LM it's your thread... so... "Differing Perspective of Historical Events Discussion" is over.

Cheers,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Lol it's like me and you back in Dieppe.....

[rf900]

If you have a computer you can download the demo version that has the full editor and you can make the maps, nearly sure.

[LandMarine47]

True but my new PC should be ready in a few weeks just got the news! I have in mind an Italian and a "Rommel in World War 2" where I show all his epic battles. A combo of North Africa and Normandy. But Poland goes first

[Ranger]

Sorry LM,

Not to "make a mountain out of a mole hill".... But... in view of my apparent misinterpretation of portions of dickesKind's posts, but mostly because of the defensive and sarcastic tone of my initial response to dickesKind's posts, I believe it is appropriate to tell dickesKind that I have sent him a PM.

Also, I'd like everyone following this thread/forum to know that the PM I sent him says (in part):

"You (dickesKind) are right in that sarcasm has no place in respectful discussions between individuals who are earnest in being understood and in understanding another's viewpoint. I apologize."


I'd also like to thank dickesKind for his considered response to the points I attempt to make in my reply to his initial post. In hindsight, I think it is clear to most of those who read my reply, to his initial post in this thread, and his rebuttal, that he and I are probably not understanding the salient points the other was trying to make. Regardless, as I said above, in such circumstances, sarcasm and defensiveness, as displayed in my post, is incompatible with respectful discussions between individuals who are unfamiliar with one another, and is a hinderance to mutual understanding and open discussion. As dickesKind so correctly said first: "sarcasm is not helpful here".

Sincerely,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Well hopefully that's the end of your little argument! Now I'm debating wether to do a German or Polish POV first..... What do you all think?