Sherman tanks

[bar91]

Hi,

In the game, we have "jumbo" tanks and sherman tanks with 105mm guns. I knew american Hvss sherman tank, sherman firefly and sherman with 76mm gun for allied but not the two others. In Normandy and Bulge and after, how many of these tanks were in battlefield and what is their real aim?
For me, tanks which must fight against heavy german tanks were american or english "tanks destroyers" more powerfull and faster. Only one tank can match the panther and it was the british firefly. I dont forget ATG gun of course which have kill many tanks.
Ther allied heavy tanks as pershing and other come too late to have a real impact on war but for german, allied tanks will have been more powerfull in mid 1945 as the soviet tanks...

So its a post on american tanks against german tanks, type, production and duty...

regards.

[MrsWargamer]

Sherman Jumbo was a tank that had extra armour lathered on it. Didn't help a lot, but that is the basis of the Jumbo.

The 105 was a howitzer support tank variant.

The Firefly of course was British. Generally the best the US had was the 76mm gun Shermans.

The blame for the Sherman was doctrine that the US simply couldn't get past. The Shermans were not supposed to fight tanks. They were given the 75 as an infantry weapon.

[sherman619]

Sherman Jumbo was a tank that had extra armour lathered on it. Didn't help a lot, but that is the basis of the Jumbo.

The 105 was a howitzer support tank variant.

The Firefly of course was British. Generally the best the US had was the 76mm gun Shermans.

The blame for the Sherman was doctrine that the US simply couldn't get past. The Shermans were not supposed to fight tanks. They were given the 75 as an infantry weapon.

The M4A3E2 assault tank, known post war as the Sherman Jumbo, was a huge success. unfortunately only 256 where built because the army thought the Pershing would be available sooner. E2 where used to lead columns as they routinely survived hits from the most common German ATG, the 75mm. It has even been documented that jumbos survived multiple hits from 88mm. Units pulled strings to get jumbos assigned to them and when more were not available expedient jumbo programs where started in the field. The E2 glacis was almost 5" thick at a 47* angle, the tranny cover was 6", the mantlet was 7", the hull sides 3", and the turret sides 4". An E2 named "Cobra King" led the legendary march to break the siege of Bastogne surviving multiple hits along the way.

The Americans enjoyed aerial superiority, numerical superiority, abundant supplies, and a huge advantage in artillery. The only German advantage lay in the fact that they were defending. The few times German armor went on the offensive in the west, they suffered crippling losses, even to the obsolete Sherman in ambush positions.

[sherman619]

Hey, new to this site, how do change my avatar?

[pipfromslitherine]

Hey, new to this site, how do change my avatar?

The avatar system is pretty inflexible (it's on our long list of things to make nicer!). It currently only changes as you make more posts, or when you become a mod etc. We switched them all to Axis units to celebrate the launch of PzC, but they might well be due an update

Cheers

Pip

[sherman619]

Hey, new to this site, how do change my avatar?

The avatar system is pretty inflexible (it's on our long list of things to make nicer!). It currently only changes as you make more posts, or when you become a mod etc. We switched them all to Axis units to celebrate the launch of PzC, but they might well be due an update

Cheers

Pip

Pip, thanks for the quick reply. Promotional for release, got it.

A lot of sites are strict, but often they provide a group of avatars to choose from. As per my username, I would love my avatar to be a Sherman tank. I especially like those desert camouflaged ones from the game, but I would gladly settle for the one on your App logo. I've already spent $60 on this franchise and look forward to purchasing all future expansions, so I don't think a Sherman tank avatar is asking for too much, let's make it happen. WW2 German gear is cool but throw the allied guys a bone.

BTW, is there a PTO expansion planned. Would love to see those flame thrower Shermans the marines had. Heck there where even some flame thrower Shermans in the ETO although not included in the game. A patch might fix that.

[pipfromslitherine]

We don't have a PTO expansion on our list at the moment. We've kicked it around quite a lot, but the mechanics didn't really seem like a good enough fit to allow us to do justice to it. There are some people who built some pacific mods I know, and there is of course the awesome Naval mod which is currently in development (which seems to be expanding into a full PTO campaign!).

I'm not sure whether adding flames to a Sherman would require a new model, or just a new entry in the squads file with flaming turned on (it depends on the visual hooks for the FX).

Cheers

Pip

[GottaLove88s]

You'll soon be seeing flame Shermans in Amaris' excellent NAM mod... More from the great man himself, shortly!
Watch his link here -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=40351#p377683

I'm collaborating with Alex to add a series of 64x64 (current largest map size permitted by BA v1) Guadalcanal/Eastern Solomons scenarios to his NAM game engine.
See development ideas here -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=41434

Alex is doing incredible work in 2D for NAM (it's already a brilliantly clever game that will only get better). Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how to use Alex's material to make it work with BA's 3D engine. For now, I've cheated by piggybacking the FairmileB and MotorGunBoat into two different Royal Navy destroyer classes, plus bringing over DUKWs and 152mm coastal guns for our latest Normandy Ninja maps... I'm planning to use all of these in an equivalent Pacific campaign this summer.
A few screenshots here -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094#p397010

But to do full justice to a Pacific campaign, we need a partner in crime to help to build 3D models for US and Jap destroyers, cruisers, carriers, etc...

Any volunteers?

[bar91]

Hi,

Thanks for replies on Sherman tank. Otherwise, Gottalove88s, I do like your 64X64 map for multiplayer with weapons choice. Do you think another one will ber coming later?
regards.

[sherman619]

We don't have a PTO expansion on our list at the moment. We've kicked it around quite a lot, but the mechanics didn't really seem like a good enough fit to allow us to do justice to it. There are some people who built some pacific mods I know, and there is of course the awesome Naval mod which is currently in development (which seems to be expanding into a full PTO campaign!).

I'm not sure whether adding flames to a Sherman would require a new model, or just a new entry in the squads file with flaming turned on (it depends on the visual hooks for the FX).

Cheers

Pip

The Sherman flame tank used in the ETO would have been like the crocodile in the sense that the main gun would still fire as normal. The flame thrower would only cancel out the hull MG. There were two types, the Sherman crocodile with the high powered flamethrower and towed trailer like the Churchill version with the fuel and propellant externally stowed. The second was a smaller internally stowed flame thrower system that was slightly less powerful, but still a lot more lethal than the one a man could carry on his back.

The crocodile system I've only ever seen pictures of on 75mm gun tanks. The second internal type was a kit that could be adapted to any sherman variant. I've seen pictures of that system on 75mm, 76mm, M4A3E2 75mm, and M4A3E2 76mm. At least 120 M4A3E2 where initially converted from 75mm to 76mm. That means almost half of all the Jumbos in theater got the bigger gun. All where converted to 76mm by the end of the war. Jumbo numbers held steady until the end of the war for a couple of reasons. Many we're never knocked out and the ones ko'd were prioritized for recycling as they tended to suffer less internal damage. I don't have an exact number but a lot of Jumbos got the flamethrower as they were used to lead attacks and create openings for infantry and other tanks.

[sherman619]

Also not represented in the game are the sherman 76mm easy 8, many of these were converted into expedient Jumbos with a complete glacis plate from another sherman welded on. Also added armor on the sides and turret. So HVSS and HVSS up armored would be a nice addition to the game. The HVSS should represent an increase in automotive performance, especially cross country.

[Old_Warrior]

US Tank doctrine was inflexible and unrealistic. It said that tanks should support infantry, tank destroyers should engage tanks.

This is like going to a party wearing a zebra outfit only to find that the theme was changed to Halloween at the last moment. Combat, like parties, is dynamic and the sudden appearance of a Mk V Panther would ruin the clever plans of the men back at the War College.

I would be interested in hearing of what Patton had to say about the US Army doctrine where it concerned tanks and TDs. I get the idea that he probably opposed it.

Add to the problem: the Tank Destroyers were controlled by their own branch in the US Army. Thus production and doctrine were divided on how to employ the armored assets.

The 3" AT gun (57mm and 37mm before this) served as the Towed TD Bn ordinance. The problem with the towed TD Bns is that they were inflexible and often suffered high losses. The high profile of the 3" gun made it harder to conceal. The towed bns were abolished by 1945 being replaced by the mech TD.

Want to have fun? Try and determine which TD Bns had which type of ordinance AND even more importantly at WHICH date. Almost as bad as trying to figure out which CSA artillery batteries had the 3" rifle during the ACW! For instance: the M36 is generally believed to not have made its appearance until December in the Bulge but sources will say that TD Bns had them in September!

The M36 Jackson was the most powerful US TD of the war but arrived much later - it really could have helped had it been around in early 1944. It's use in Italy for example could have helped out the US Armor which often was fighting the dreaded Tiger I tank.

Note: from what I have read no King Tiger frontal armor was ever penetrated. Later when the Pershing arrived in ran into some heavy armor and the results were that the 90mm would not penetrate the King Tiger's armor (frontal). King Tigers mainly were immobilized and then abandoned or simply ran out of fuel.