Paper tanks.

[Muddy]

PC, is one of my favorite games, but one thing that always niggles me is why are the tanks in the game so weak? They can be smashed by infantry and armored cars quite easily even when in open flat land. I can understand them being weak in towns and city's, but on other terrain shouldn't they be dominant and feared? I mean, even the horse cavalry can do more damage.

I know there is probably a reason for this but I am no field marshal when it comes to these matters, but it does make me wonder.

[timek28]

PC, is one of my favorite games, but one thing that always niggles me is why are the tanks in the game so weak? They can be smashed by infantry and armored cars quite easily even when in open flat land. I can understand them being weak in towns and city's, but on other terrain shouldn't they be dominant and feared? I mean, even the horse cavalry can do more damage.

I know there is probably a reason for this but I am no field marshal when it comes to these matters, but it does make me wonder.

I came to a similar conclusion after I started playing original PC again. Right now I'm in the first France mission and I converted Pz1 tanks into PzIVD tanks. Pz1 has both soft and hard attack of 1!!! But PzIV has 8 and 7 respectively which should be a great improvement. This doesn't show on the field however. Artillery and even infantry can devastate PzIVD when they attack it. Artillery can take as much as 4 strength points of the PzIVD. What is up with that?? I better not mention French tanks AAs and ATs. Good God I have Stukas to plow me through as tanks are mostly useless.

Also some French recon units that has 4HA can also take upt to 2-3 strength points of the PzIVD. How is that possible? There is not a single attack that spares these tanks. I have to patch them all the time as they looked more like soft targets than hard ones. Maybe I will go for Pz3Fs instead. I think they have weaker attack but stronger defense (some 2 points stronger).

It's really silly...

[Dragoon.]

Early PzIVs have very low ground defense values. If you check the stats of PzIVD's and the 105/150mm arty hard attack values you will see they got a good kill chance. Don't worry by '42 the tanks will have improved so much that they will become resistant and later even immune to artillery attacks except for the really big guns.

However the easiest way to avoid damage is to deny the enemy the chance to return fire. First stun the enemy with arty and/or level bombers then attack with your tanks with impunity.

[shawkhan]

Personally, I go very lightly on using armor at all in 1939-1940. Recon units are much more useful at this time. Lots of artillery and good infantry works much better. W/O the Luftwaffe, most of the early victories would have been impossible, so don't leave home W/O a couple Stukas, although lately I have been experimenting with using up to 4 Me 110s as a more survivable option. If you have an '88' for that emergency situation, you will have recreated the actual historical situation quite nicely.
For those of us playing on Field Marshal the best units to use also are cheaper to repair than trying to replace those expensive ineffective early tanks.

[timek28]

Personally, I go very lightly on using armor at all in 1939-1940. Recon units are much more useful at this time. Lots of artillery and good infantry works much better. W/O the Luftwaffe, most of the early victories would have been impossible, so don't leave home W/O a couple Stukas, although lately I have been experimenting with using up to 4 Me 110s as a more survivable option. If you have an '88' for that emergency situation, you will have recreated the actual historical situation quite nicely.
For those of us playing on Field Marshal the best units to use also are cheaper to repair than trying to replace those expensive ineffective early tanks.

Yeah maybe I should go for even more planes than tanks. Although all French units are heavily entrenched, so bombers are not that effective, but they are lethal against enemy armor and in open terain. I'm maybe going for 4 stukas, 3 bf 109s and 1 bf 110 for this mission, instead of new tanks.

[Muddy]

I use very few tanks, those that I do have die very quickly, so I don't waste xp on them. They should be the spearhead and bulldozer of my army but horse and rider fare better in PC.

[soldier]

As Dragoon has said the early panzers were a pretty lightly armoured bunch . Even the Panzer IV had weak armour and was constantly upgraded throughout the war. Nearly all of these could have their armour penetrated by oppostion field guns be they AT, AA or artillery. In a one on one clash the allied tanks were not out classed and even some recon units are a chance. At least these are the statistics on paper so this is fair enough. Of course in real life the Panzers had many other advantages and the French didn't mass their Panhard cars in 1940.

They should be the spearhead and bulldozer of my army but horse and rider fare better in PC.

i don't agree. The Germans did not win in France by using their tanks as bulldozers and taking on the enemy head on. They attacked weak spots in mass and poured through gaps to run amock in the rear.

There is some funny behaviour against troops out in the open though. The Panzer I, II's and 38 t take hits of 1 or 2 on good terrain but sometimes 3 and 4. The Pz IV does much better but i too have seen it get belted on the odd occasion. Unless these guys are really blundering into the infantry at point blank this probably should not happen so much. Most troops just didn't have the hardware to knock out tanks early in the war. Also some allied recon units like the britsh Dingo and rolls royce are poorly modelled in Panzer Corps with overinflated stats when really they were no match.

The early panzers certainly have there weaknesses and can't be left around on the front unsupported or weakened. As previously mentioned combined arms support and mobile artillery will make up for deficiencies in defense or attack and the Luftwaffe should be leading the way

[Muddy]

Okay, maybe not cavalry, but recon and your average infantry seem to out gun tanks.
As I say, it doesn't bother me, nor does it ruin the game. It's just feels quite odd having paper tanks.

[timek28]

I actually tried Pz3F instead of Pz4D. I can say I was pleasantly surprised. 2 more points on GD can make significant difference in combat results. Enemy can take 1-2 points off Pz3F. Rarely more than that. They are still not good tanks, but are also not paper thin.

Like others said, relying on tanks early in the war is not a good idea.

Instead bombers, mobile artillery and infantry are the way to go. And yes allied recon units are not modeled in the best way in PC. Some encounters where enemy attacks me from the river have suspicious combat results (for example DIngo attacks my Pz3F - while Dingo is on river - and the result is 2-2). I doubt that this was possible in reality, but neverthelss I can win.

[Muddy]

Instead bombers, mobile artillery and infantry are the way to go. And yes allied recon units are not modeled in the best way in PC. Some encounters where enemy attacks me from the river have suspicious combat results (for example DIngo attacks my Pz3F - while Dingo is on river - and the result is 2-2). I doubt that this was possible in reality, but neverthelss I can win.

I have had this sort of thing often happen to me. It's a WTF moment.

[shawkhan]

The dice gods can sometimes be amazing. Probably the reason so many deluded people still go to Las Vegas. Of course, early on, we are also playing with less experienced units. The hero and experience modifiers can make all the difference.

[Muddy]

Here is another strange event. When a enemy is crossing a river and you hit him hard enough to make him retreat. He sometimes retreats to your side of the river.......which I would say was advancing. I hit him again and he advances some more. He has had 2 free moves for being a prat, and is now in a position to hit my attys in the rear on his turn.

[timek28]

Here is another strange event. When a enemy is crossing a river and you hit him hard enough to make him retreat. He sometimes retreats to your side of the river.......which I would say was advancing. I hit him again and he advances some more. He has had 2 free moves for being a prat, and is now in a position to hit my attys in the rear on his turn.

Hmmm... I didn't have this happen to me. But I did have a situation where I was attacking enemy who is on the river with my tank and I had more losses than him?! And as a matter of fact I attacked infantry or the before-mentioned Dingo. So sometimes (in early missions) it seems that river gives you no advantage.

[Muddy]

It happens mostly in defense missions like 'Piatek' and the such. Very annoying. The river hex should be flagged as a one way hex on retreat.

[timek28]

The point is to survive to the first Pz3H tank. This is the first tank that is more or less better than enemy armor and has GD of 10 which is enough to repulse most open ground attacks. I believe it appears first in the Greece mission (6th April 1941), and after that life is a lot easier. Before that tanks should be used very cautiously.

[Muddy]

The point is to survive to the first Pz3H tank. This is the first tank that is more or less better than enemy armor and has GD of 10 which is enough to repulse most open ground attacks. I believe it appears first in the Greece mission (6th April 1941), and after that life is a lot easier. Before that tanks should be used very cautiously.

Tanks for the info, I will be looking out for the Pz3H.

[timek28]

Tanks for the info, I will be looking out for the Pz3H.

Well yea. It's good until you encounter first T34-40. Then it is purely up to luck how it will perform. First real tank that can be relied on is Pz4G, and it comes in 1942...

But if you have experienced unit even Pz3J/1, L or M will perform adequately.

[Razz1]

Instead bombers, mobile artillery and infantry are the way to go. And yes allied recon units are not modeled in the best way in PC. Some encounters where enemy attacks me from the river have suspicious combat results (for example DIngo attacks my Pz3F - while Dingo is on river - and the result is 2-2). I doubt that this was possible in reality, but neverthelss I can win.

I have had this sort of thing often happen to me. It's a WTF moment.

Recon units were changed in the game because no one would buy one and keep it in their core.

The GD was increased drastically.

It seems over all the majority of the payers enjoy the change when it was released and are now using recon units.

I myself did not like the results. Recon units are a little too strong. So most of the recon units have been reduce by one or two GD in the AT and AA mod.

Results are much better. Still a little too strong in the early phase of the war but can still be used late in the war. It's a sacrifice we have to make for play ability.

It was really hard for me to justify recon units at 9 or 10 GD when most PZ III tanks are GD 8! Why buy a tank when a recon unit can hold up better in defense?

So after testing the change was made. viewtopic.php?f=147&t=30721

[Muddy]

Tried to download that mod but my virus checker said it's malicious. Could you not find a better host, Sendspace seems very suckie. Maybe Dropbox or Google drive would be better.

[Razz1]

You are getting a false positive.
You have to make sure you click on the the correct link.

Otherwise they will try to download software you do not need.

Many of us here use sendspace for our Mods.

The sight is good and I have been using it for years.