Condottas and the Swiss . . .

[stockwellpete]

An oddity from I game I had yesterday. My opponent chose a Venetian Condotta army with Swiss allies and I chose a Florentine Condotta army with Swiss allies. His Swiss contingent was smaller than mine but its ratio of pikes to halberds was 2:1 whereas my lot had a ratio of pikes to halberds of 1:3. Why on earth would that be then? Anyone know the answer? It was rather important in the context of the battle as his Swiss pikemen massacred the Florentine infantry in about 2 turns.

[TheGrayMouser]

An oddity from I game I had yesterday. My opponent chose a Venetian Condotta army with Swiss allies and I chose a Florentine Condotta army with Swiss allies. His Swiss contingent was smaller than mine but its ratio of pikes to halberds was 2:1 whereas my lot had a ratio of pikes to halberds of 1:3. Why on earth would that be then? Anyone know the answer? It was rather important in the context of the battle as his Swiss pikemen massacred the Florentine infantry in about 2 turns.

Could it be the dates of the army lists? For example the Papal army is really a mid 14th century list while the others appear to be early or late 15th c?

Just checked, the Florence list is 1400-1424 and less pikes for the swiss, venice is 1440-1500 , more pikes!

[stockwellpete]

Perhaps that is it then? The Florentine list is just for 1424 whereas the Venetian list goes from 1440 up to 1500. I think the Condotta lists could do with being standardised so they contain all the historical options from 1400 to 1500. The Papal States is a 14thC list.

[stockwellpete]

I have just had a look at the "Storm of Arrows" book, TGM, and there is something a bit odd. As you know, the books give a lot of extra useful information about the armies. What it says in relation to the Swiss fighting in Italy is this - for Florentine armies the Swiss are only available in 1424, the date given to the Florentine list, whereas the Swiss are only available to the Venetians (in Italy) from 1440 onwards. So it seems that the DAG battle I had yesterday between the Venetians and the Florentines, where both sides had Swiss allies, was ahistorical.

Another interesting point is that the lists in the book for the Condottas cover the period 1320 to 1500 and the various optional contingents are dated as historically available only at certain times. This is very helpful for TT players but the DAG does not give PC players this information. For example, the SOA book tells us that Venice used English archers only between 1400 and 1440 and after then other bowmen were used (not longbowmen); Venice also hired stradiots and Turks after 1440. It would be good if this sort of information could be included in the DAG eventually although that would be quite a big job for someone. It would also be good if the DAG lists covered all the various options for the entire period 1300 (1320) to 1500 for all the Condotta armies. Having 6 Condotta armies sounds a lot but currently, the Papal States list is 14thC, the Florentine list is just for 1424, and one of the Venetian lists is for outside Italy. Only Naples, Milan and Venice are for the period 1440 to 1500 and the Venetians are much, much stronger than the other two.

[TheGrayMouser]

I have just had a look at the "Storm of Arrows" book, TGM, and there is something a bit odd. As you know, the books give a lot of extra useful information about the armies. What it says in relation to the Swiss fighting in Italy is this - for Florentine armies the Swiss are only available in 1424, the date given to the Florentine list, whereas the Swiss are only available to the Venetians (in Italy) from 1440 onwards. So it seems that the DAG battle I had yesterday between the Venetians and the Florentines, where both sides had Swiss allies, was ahistorical.

Another interesting point is that the lists in the book for the Condottas cover the period 1320 to 1500 and the various optional contingents are dated as historically available only at certain times. This is very helpful for TT players but the DG does not give PC players this information. For example, the SOA book tells us that Venice used English archers only between 1400 and 1440 and after then other bowmen were used (not longbowmen); Venice also hired stradiots and Turks after 1440. It would be good if this sort of information could be included in the DAG eventually although that would be quite a big job for someone. It would also be good if the DAG lists covered all the various options for the entire period 1300 (1320) to 1500 for all the Condotta armies. Having 6 Condotta armies sounds a lot but currently, the Papal States list is 14thC, the Florentine list is just for 1424, and one of the Venetian lists is for outside Italy. Only Naples, Milan and Venice are for the period 1440 to 1500 and the Venetians are much, much stronger than the other two.

Yeah, Im not sure how much more historical the TT lists are but clearly having a historical fight is not acheiivable currently. I do wonder if oath of fealty takes up some of the slack? BTW , where are all the pavisier units which I assumed would be part of these lists

[stockwellpete]

Yeah, Im not sure how much more historical the TT lists are but clearly having a historical fight is not acheiivable currently. I do wonder if oath of fealty takes up some of the slack? BTW , where are all the pavisier units which I assumed would be part of these lists

The pavisier/crossbow units and militia spearmen units are designated as "up to 1400" in the SOA book, apart from in Florence where they persisted with the communal infantry well into the 15thC. If we were to expand the Condotta lists at some stage so they ran from 1300-1500 then they could be included. Osprey produce a book "Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500" which is quite helpful.

[stockwellpete]

I have just spent an hour looking at the Condotta lists in the "Storm of Arrows" book and comparing them with what we have in the DAG. It would be a relatively simple matter, I think, to slightly amend the DAG in order to bring it into line with the SOA book. By doing so I think it would greatly increase the playability of the Condotta armies. The changes needed are as follows . . .

i) Change all the titles of the Condotta lists so they say "1300 to 1500" instead of "1300-99" (Papal States), "1424" (Florence) or "1440-1500" (Naples, the two Venetian lists, and Milan). The list for Venice (inside Italy) also needs to state that it is for Venice and not Italy.

ii) Florence - the basic list is fine; the only thing is to consider whether there should be Swiss allies at all in the list. According to the SOA book (page 59), Florence hired 10,000 Swiss in 1424 for 3 months. They don't appear to have hired them on any other occasions.

iii) Milan - add communal infantry categories (as per the Florence list) i.e. militia spearmen (HF), militia pavisiers/crossbowmen (HF + MF) and militia crossbowmen (MF).

iv) Naples - no changes required.

v) Papal States - add pikemen and billmen as per Florentine list.

vi) Venice (inside Italy) - add communal infantry categories (as per the Florence list) i.e. militia spearmen (HF), militia pavisiers/crossbowmen (HF + MF) and militia crossbowmen (MF). A query I have is should there be Swiss allies as a separate category on this list? At the moment I am not clear when the Venetians hired them after 1440 and in what numbers. If they hired a small number from time to time then maybe the option of Swiss troops should just be included in the army list like stradiots and Turks.

vii) Venice (outside Italy) - no changes requires. Dalmatian is spelt incorrectly.

[stockwellpete]

I found this book on military history of Venice. Not all the pages are included in the sample but there is enough there to make me wonder if Swiss mercenaries ever served in great numbers with the Venetian Republic at all. If this is the case then they really shouldn't be classed as "Allies" for the Venetians (inside Italy) in the period up to 1500.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ffa4 ... ry&f=false

[fogman]

your battle was also ahistorical on account of the fact that swiss mercenaries would not fight other swiss mercenaries (unlike the landsknechte). they would not contract themselves out to opposing armies in the first place so that whether they would fight each other is moot. After 1515 and until the end of the 16th century, they only served France.

[stockwellpete]

your battle was also ahistorical on account of the fact that swiss mercenaries would not fight other swiss mercenaries (unlike the landsknechte). they would not contract themselves out to opposing armies in the first place so that whether they would fight each other is moot. After 1515 and until the end of the 16th century, they only served France.

Well, I came across this about Dreux and it agrees that the Swiss would not fight each other and suggests that, on certain occasions anyway, the German landsknechte's were not too keen to either . . .

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d3cv ... er&f=false

I actually still cannot find any definite details to say when Swiss mercenaries were employed by the Venetian Republic.