combined mounted BG and firing range

[bahdahbum]

Xbow or bow cavalry fires at 3 or 4 MU depending on formation . Now what about a combined KN and mounted Xbow formation ( later polish ) .
Strickly speaking they are not in one rank so should shoot at 4 MU but there is still only one rank deep of Xbow .. . the rationale was that in 2 ranks the density of "arrows" and "bolts" would give them a rage of 4 MU ..but here they are in one rank but the BG is in two ranks .

I would say 4 MU as the BG is in 2 ranks but wuld like some confirmation .

[ravenflight]

Xbow or bow cavalry fires at 3 or 4 MU depending on formation . Now what about a combined KN and mounted Xbow formation ( later polish ) .
Strickly speaking they are not in one rank so should shoot at 4 MU but there is still only one rank deep of Xbow .. . the rationale was that in 2 ranks the density of "arrows" and "bolts" would give them a rage of 4 MU ..but here they are in one rank but the BG is in two ranks .

I would say 4 MU as the BG is in 2 ranks but wuld like some confirmation .

I'd say 4 MU because the reason for 3MU has nothing to do with density and everything to do with being closer to HF so that if you shoot at them in 1 rank you can automatically be charged.

[gozerius]

4 MU. The mounted crossbow are not in a skirmish formation. Although the BG is depicted as Knight sin the front rank and crossbows behind, in they are depicting an intermixed formation of knights and crossbow armed retainers. Other battlegroups with a lower proportion of knights to marksmen are treated exclusively as cavalry with the ability to skirmish if in one rank.

[philqw78]

Cavalry entirely 1 rank deep shoot 3 MU*. And they are. But their BG is not entirely 1 rank deep or entirely cavalry.

Ooops Dr Bodley-Scott. Are we going to get an FAQ for V2?


*This may come back and crucify me this weekend so I would completely disagree with this interpretation as it disadvantages me

[ravenflight]

Cavalry entirely 1 rank deep shoot 3 MU*. And they are. But their BG is not entirely 1 rank deep or entirely cavalry.

Ooops Dr Bodley-Scott. Are we going to get an FAQ for V2?


*This may come back and crucify me this weekend so I would completely disagree with this interpretation as it disadvantages me

Thing is I don't think it really matters THAT much as the infantry is hardly going to go charging the knights, but I guess it would advantage cavalry in the shootout as they could get at least 1 round of shooting without the Poles able to respond.

[philqw78]

Its worse than that, shooting rang is less than charge range. Its Bw* all over again

[pyruse]

The BG is not 'cavalry entirely on rank deep' is it? So that rule clearly doesn't apply.

[bahdahbum]

It's worse : cavalry in one line behind knights in one line ....so what should apply 3 ou 4 MU

[philqw78]

The BG is not 'cavalry entirely on rank deep' is it? So that rule clearly doesn't apply.

The cavalry is one rank deep. We know its something they missed, but if cavalry are one rank deep their shooting range is 3MU

[kevinj]

This would have been clearer if the description had been "Skirmishers", or the table referred to the Shooting BG (in the example given the shooting bg is definitely not Cavalry 1 base deep). I am sure that the intent was that non skirmishing cavalry shot at the longer range as the shorter range is deemed to result from all of the dodging around while skirmishing.

[pyruse]

The range is computed per unit, not per rank - the *unit* is not "cavalry entirely one rank deep".
It doesn't matter whether the part of the unit which is cavalry is one rank or not.
The rules say a unit consisting of cavalry entirely one rank deep shoot at 3MU.
The unit does not consist of cavalry entirely one rank deep, so it shoots at 4MU.
I think some people just like arguing ridiculous stuff for the sake of it.

[ravenflight]

The range is computed per unit, not per rank - the *unit* is not "cavalry entirely one rank deep".
It doesn't matter whether the part of the unit which is cavalry is one rank or not.
The rules say a unit consisting of cavalry entirely one rank deep shoot at 3MU.
The unit does not consist of cavalry entirely one rank deep, so it shoots at 4MU.
I think some people just like arguing ridiculous stuff for the sake of it.

Yes, I'd agree with this interpretation. With my Rennaissance army I have Unprotected Determined Horse, and have to be careful when facing bow armed troops. I like to run my Determined Horse (think knights) in 3 forward one behind in reserve... however that gives bow armed troops a + POA vs 'unprotected troops not entirely in one rank'. They don't target 2 bases at 0 poa and 1 base at +poa. Similarly, cavalry (it seems) in FoG:A2 in the same formation would NOT be in skirmisher so would (presumably) have a range of 4".

[hazelbark]

*This may come back and crucify me this weekend so I would completely disagree with this interpretation as it disadvantages me

Don't worry you will just flank march them anyway.

[babyshark]

The unit does not consist of cavalry entirely one rank deep, so it shoots at 4MU.
I think some people just like arguing ridiculous stuff for the sake of it.

Excellent analysis, on both points.

Marc

[philqw78]

The range is computed per unit, not per rank

It does say this? But it also says that the range for 1 rank is 3MU

[ney63]

Your quite right phil it does not mention unit.
It says Cavalry or camelry entirely 1 base deep, light foot 3"
cavalry or camelry not entirely 1 base deep, Cataphracts,Chariots 4"

They have obviously missed Knights off the last line!!!!!!
They probably forgot about the few armies what can have Knights- xbow combination.
Needs as you say clarifying.

Andy

[philqw78]

Sorry I edited whilst you replied.

[pyruse]

Top of page 97 in the v2 rules (same text on a slightly lower page number in v1), discusses shooting by a unit, and explicitly mentions the case of combined lancer/archer units.
I agree there's nothing in the section on ranges mentioning units, so it needs a clarification by the authors.

[batesmotel]

While this question may have similar intellectual entertainment value similar to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, the intent of the authors in the rules is clear. Cavalry archers/crossbowmen who are in a single rank and hence eligible to evade (if not also equipped with lance) and to use the backup 2 MU CMT have the same reduced 3 MU range as do LH with the same weapons. Otherwise the normal 4 MU range appplies.

Chris

[bahdahbum]

While this question may have similar intellectual entertainment value similar to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

Perhaps some people should learn to write understandable rules and so we, poor not english native speaking people could understand better the intend .

I know it is not easy to write ryles, so do not be surprised we ask questions and before stating what you did state, think first about it : how is it possible that all those people who discussed in this topic did come to dissimilar conclusions . Perhaps because it needed some explanation .