Ideas for formers

[whaleberg]

I've noticed a few issues with the way formers work right now, and I have a few ideas about how they could be improved.

The major issue is that there is no way to tie a former to a specific city to deal with pollution. In civ games there has been an "Automate former to improve home city" option, which does just that. The former improves it's home city as much as possible, and then waits in the city sleeping until it is needed again, either to remove pollution, or to fix pillaged improvements.

Another problem I've noticed is that automate formers will happily cross water to make improvements on another continent. They tend to get eaten by leviathans. It also ends up with situations where your formers spend most of their time travelling back and forth between distant locations instead of doing useful work. I think it would be better if the automated formers would not leave the continent they are on. Or even better an "automate former on this continent" option which would tie them to a specific island.

The other issue that I have with formers right now, is that there really isn't anything to do with them in later stages of the game, other than removing pollution. In many games, different improvements become available over the course of the game, which requires formers to construct. Alpha centauri had near constant work for your formers throughout the game. It also caused changes in the utility of various tiles as new inventions were made, which made long term planning more interesting. Do you go for the immediate pay off and clear all the fungus? Or save some until it is useful to you later?

In AC, the former is actually a component (like a weapon type in Pandora) instead of a unit type, which allowed the creation of stronger, faster, or more mobile formers. If you're expecting your formers to be safe and operate locally, build cheap, weak, slow formers. Want them to be able to survive a hit or two, or cover more ground, then build more expensive armored or fast formers. (it also allowed for things like orbitally dropped formers, how exciting!)

[SephiRok]

I agree with the "automate former around this city", I think it should be easy to do. Not sure about having yet another order for automating only on continent. Maybe automating on multiple continents is silly anyway and the orders should be "automate on continent" and "automate on city".

I'm not sure what we would make sense to add for formers to do. In theory we could add something for each type of missing resource (production, research, credits, pollution, morale) and/or something that enhances (current) improvements; both would require new art. Adding more different types would also pose a question on how to automate Formers. We do want to at least add a better version of the road.

I added devices to unit designs, so it in the next version it will be class, weapon, device and armor. Devices will fill the role of special abilities from AC; I felt like it was missing too badly. Currently planned are + power on attack, + power on defense, + healing rate, + movement, and more. So in theory you can stick those on your Former, + movement would help you, but since void didn't like Formers having power, any armor or other power related enhancements wouldn't really help you, I think that's a pitty.

[whaleberg]

I agree with the "automate former around this city", I think it should be easy to do. Not sure about having yet another order for automating only on continent. Maybe automating on multiple continents is silly anyway and the orders should be "automate on continent" and "automate on city".

Yeah, I think multiple continents is a little silly. I think I would almost always use automate on continent over automate global. It might be nice to have automate global as an option still though. It is nice that formers automatically cross inland seas and take shortcuts through water, so restricting them might be a little more complicated than eliminating automatic water travel. I don't know if the game has a concept of continent built in yet, or a freshwater/saltwater distinction.

I'm not sure what we would make sense to add for formers to do. In theory we could add something for each type of missing resource (production, research, credits, pollution, morale) and/or something that enhances (current) improvements; both would require new art. Adding more different types would also pose a question on how to automate Formers. We do want to at least add a better version of the road.

This isn't an easy question, and I would generally avoid the simplest option of adding higher level variants of the existing structures. (With the exception of the road, I agree with the need for an advanced, faster, road.) The fact that the production boosting buildings are large multipliers makes even small increases to basic production have a large ripple effect. If the higher tier resource buildings were changed or eliminated, then higher level terrain improvements could become feasible. Better than just more of the same though, would be different terrain improvements that worked in different ways. Civ IV had suburbs (I think they were called villages?) They were map constructions that initially took up space and produced little, but over time would grow into some of the best land improvements. Alpha Centuari had condensors, boreholes, and mirrors which altered the production of surrounding tiles. They also contributed much more to your environmental damage. Tactical structures are also interesting, forts, forest, and roads are already in, but things like sensors, walls, rivers, anti-artillery shields, and other types of immobile structures can be interesting and make the tactical game more challenging. I also really like canals, because it's very often that you want move ships across a space that is a few tiles wide, but there is no way to do so.

My biggest enjoyment of this type of game is building empires and watching the land slowly morph and evolve, so I really to have more things that alter the map through out the game.

Needing additional art assets is definitely a problem. One option that avoids the "more of the same problem as well as not needing additional art, would be to add the option to terraform one base terrain type into another, or to raise or lower hills. This would let late game cities make use of formerly useless terrain, or become more specialized.

I added devices to unit designs, so it in the next version it will be class, weapon, device and armor. Devices will fill the role of special abilities from AC; I felt like it was missing too badly. Currently planned are + power on attack, + power on defense, + healing rate, + movement, and more.

That's really good to hear. If you're going to have a unit design system it needs more flexibility than it does now. I think you should think hard about how you want to break up abilities though. For instance I don't know if you want a +movement option that is different than class, a major piece of the tactical estimation in the game is knowing where your enemy's units can move to, and having units that look the same but move further can screw with people in a bad way. Also, in general I would favor abilities that force you to think about the way you play, rather than just making a unit better. + attack and +defense are good for that because they give you and your opponent incentives to act differently. +healing rate doesn't make you play differently, it's just a straight bonus. Having units with a +healing "aura" are much more interesting, because then it makes you consider how you place and maneuver your troops in formation more. I might also consider moving some of the unit based operations into unit abilities. A unit with a one shot nano-heal, that then has to recuperate in one of your cities is much more interesting (and fair for your opponent) than a generic "nano heal" button. I

So in theory you can stick those on your Former, + movement would help you, but since void didn't like Formers having power, any armor or other power related enhancements wouldn't really help you, I think that's a pitty.

It's fine to have fundamentally vulnerable formers. Since that's the case though, it would be good if there was a "guard unit" option, which would let you have a defender automatically stick with your former though. Alternatively there could be a formal way of connecting units together in stacks, which would accomplish a similar thing and also help with troop management.

[unormal]

Random thought for formers would be to allow them to "deploy" on resource nodes for additional output of some type. It would give you something to do with otherwise idle formers.

[unormal]

Another option, that would be flavorful, would be to allow very long projects that permanently increased or simply altered the yield/type of a square. So that eventually, if you dedicate/protect enough formers you can be completely surrounded by eden squares (or whatever); or cut your enemy's cities off with ocean squares (if they let your formers live long enough)

[whaleberg]

Random thought for formers would be to allow them to "deploy" on resource nodes for additional output of some type. It would give you something to do with otherwise idle formers.

That's like the supply crawlers in AC.

Another option, that would be flavorful, would be to allow very long projects that permanently increased or simply altered the yield/type of a square. So that eventually, if you dedicate/protect enough formers you can be completely surrounded by eden squares (or whatever); or cut your enemy's cities off with ocean squares (if they let your formers live long enough)

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say when I was talking about terraforming a square. Turning it permanently from say, desert, to plains, and then plains to grassland. Or removing a hill. That sort of thing.

[unormal]

Honestly late-game workers have always been a chore in Civ; they eventually just go automatic and you have a billion of them, and it's just annoying busywork. It'd probably be good at some point to get a tech (nanoswarm workers or whatever) where the workers just all vanish and you can then just instantly make any improvement change in one turn, regardless. That's what it ends up as for all practical purposes anyway.

[whaleberg]

Honestly late-game workers have always been a chore in Civ; they eventually just go automatic and you have a billion of them, and it's just annoying busywork. It'd probably be good at some point to get a tech (nanoswarm workers or whatever) where the workers just all vanish and you can then just instantly make any improvement change in one turn, regardless. That's what it ends up as for all practical purposes anyway.

It does get to be micro-management hassle, but I really like to be able to keep improving the landscape. Even if it's just on automatic. There is definitely interest in trying to optimize boreholes and such in AC. Eventually you tend to give up and let the AI take over, but it adds more points in the game where you need to make decisions about how to customize things.

One way to reduce micro could be to allow you to draw improvement designations on the map and then autoformers would construct them as soon as they could. That would let you have the fun of planning and designating things, without the annoying hassle of having to manually manage your formers. I would love that even if they're aren't additional improvements added. (Let me designate which hills should have mines and which should have farms for instance)

[SephiRok]

Random thought for formers would be to allow them to "deploy" on resource nodes for additional output of some type. It would give you something to do with otherwise idle formers.

That's like the supply crawlers in AC.

Another option, that would be flavorful, would be to allow very long projects that permanently increased or simply altered the yield/type of a square. So that eventually, if you dedicate/protect enough formers you can be completely surrounded by eden squares (or whatever); or cut your enemy's cities off with ocean squares (if they let your formers live long enough)

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to say when I was talking about terraforming a square. Turning it permanently from say, desert, to plains, and then plains to grassland. Or removing a hill. That sort of thing.

I definitely think we should improve on this.

I really like both of those ideas. At least the deploy order and improve ecoregion order should be easy to do. Deploy could give you a bonus on the tile and make sure pollution doesn't appear, while improve ecoregion would slowly morph the terrain from desert towards tropical and from arctic towards grassland.

Changing terrain elevation is a bit more complicated because we have to change the terrain mesh and all meshes around it; formers also can't swim currently.

I'll think further what would be interesting to build as tile improvements.

[whaleberg]

I really like both of those ideas. At least the deploy order and improve ecoregion order should be easy to do. Deploy could give you a bonus on the tile and make sure pollution doesn't appear, while improve ecoregion would slowly morph the terrain from desert towards tropical and from arctic towards grassland.

I think both would be good additions. Long term terrain improvements give you something to work towards over time which, and will show up on the map, both of which are good. Depending on how it's handled, deployment could be very unbalancing, or just end up with everyone having many extra formers. If the "Deploy" option is added, it would be great to see a "Deploy and Automate Pollution Cleanup" option. That way you could have the default be deployed, but it would automatically deal with pollution. Otherwise you'd have still have to keep extra formers on hand or switch them manually which is a pain.

formers also can't swim currently.

If formers were switched to being a "weapon" rather than a chassis this wouldn't be a problem at all. Just put a forming gun on any ship, and there you go, swimming former.

Changing terrain elevation is a bit more complicated because we have to change the terrain mesh and all meshes around it; formers also can't swim currently.

Do you mean for adding/removing hills, or full scale terrain raising and lowering like AC or Populous? The first seems much more doable than the second in the current engine, but I don't know how the map is implemented under the hood.

[SephiRok]

Still wouldn't help you terraform from water to ground without a ship ending up on ground. Formers just have to become amphibious.

I mean adding/removing hills, yes.

[whaleberg]

Still wouldn't help you terraform from water to ground without a ship ending up on ground. Formers just have to become amphibious.

Good point. There are lots of work arounds, like forming from the square next to it, but that is kind of awkward.

[azpops]

Something I've noticed with formers is that while it can build improvements, it can't remove them!! Odd. If I want to change the improvement or remove an improvement on a hex, I have to have a combat unit pillage it and then move the former in. If a former can add an improvement, it should be able to remove one.

[armyknight]

I read the comment about lack of work for the formers in the later game, some ideas I can think of, if workable in game

Improved technologies for farms / mines ect not just city improvements.
Such as the observatories found in the game, why can't the formers make them later
Pit mines produce more metals and lots more pollution
Plantations ect.
Are there sea formers?

Maybe even field hospitals for increased healing of units

Some combat builds tied to advancements such as
Blockades/ mines that slow movement
Levels of forts, each level taking 3 turns to build
This are just some ideas

[armyknight]

Pollution and formers

Can there be a anti pollution improvement other than trees?

A park or preserve that produces no resources but reduces pollution?
That would make you balance building improvements, even forests, against preserving the "native" environment.

Trees are just part of an ecosystem, and if you wanted to reduce your pollution you really would limit changing the environment, not just plant trees that you still generate resources from.

[Sord]

If formers were switched to being a "weapon" rather than a chassis this wouldn't be a problem at all.

I really like this idea and think it would be a particularly excellent if it could be combined with upgrading existing units (although it might not really be an upgrade, but just a re-purposing).

My vision would be that you might initially build some units with the "former" weapon and have them work on improving the surrounding land. Then when it was time for war, you'd bring them back to the city, outfit them with guns, and send them off. When the war was done, you could bring the survivors back to make them workers again.

I'd think that updating a unit should be expensive (I'd ballpark it at 1/3 the cost of building a new unit).

I'd also combine it with have a variety of improvement types and using the "attack" strength of the unit to determine how many build points it adds towards completion. There would be small projects that you could do at the start of the game with just your infantry units, but they would be obsolete by mid-game, maybe by giving them smaller non-stacking versions of the same bonuses that buildings will give later. While bigger projects would eventually require multiple strong mechanized units to complete in a reasonable time, but should grant meaningful permanent bonuses (maybe +X production/science/etc. or building like effects that do stack).