Commanded out shot

[ravenflight]

Hi all,

I've just read the commanding out of shot rules a little more clearly, but still have a question:

According to the RAW, I cannot see a reason why 2 BG's of 5shot&1 pike (a la LouisXIV or League of Augsberg) couldn't be commanded into 1 bg of all shot and 1 bg of older style 4shot&2 pike.

Thoughts?

[kevinj]

There are 2 rules that, in my opinion, combine to prevent this:

"The pike bases must be together in a single rectangle ... at least 2 ranks deep if there is more than one Pike Base" P33
but
"Composite battle groups cannot adopt a formation with pike deeper than they would have been in the original battle groups unless all shot have been detached." P183

[rbodleyscott]

There are 2 rules that, in my opinion, combine to prevent this:

"The pike bases must be together in a single rectangle ... at least 2 ranks deep if there is more than one Pike Base" P33
but
"Composite battle groups cannot adopt a formation with pike deeper than they would have been in the original battle groups unless all shot have been detached." P183

So essentially you need to combine the pike into a pike-only BG.

We have considered "rectifying" this slightly odd situation with an erratum, but have not done so because it is a useful counterbalance to people's attempts to get a freebie benefit from the free bayonets that late 17th century pike and shot BGs get. Also I have yet to see any historical evidence that the pikes discarded to allow rapid movement were transferred to another formation in this late period.

Also, while you are thinking of commanding out shot, remember that any Regimental Guns have to stay with the pikes, and if a BG ends up with more than one RG, it only counts as having one RG.

[ravenflight]

Regimental Guns have to stay with the pikes

Hi Richard,

I know this to be true, but I cannot find it in the rules. Can you clarrify please?

(I have an issue with a CanCon army list).

Also, if 2 BG's of 4shot 2pike (P&S without regimental Gun) detatch their shot, can they produce a:

4 shot 4 pike (only legal formation would be:




As the pike cannot be in deeper formations unless all shot are detached)

and a second BG of 4 shot?

I can't see anything in the rules on detaching shot, however it would be unweildy as they would never legally be able to form a column. Presumably they would be able to form an illegal formation (until reformed) if forced, but never voluntarily.

[timmy1]

R

Page 182. Detached Shot.

'a player whose army includes mixed battle groups of pike and shot can detach shot bases from up to half such battle groups to create new "temporary" battle groups of between 2-8 medium foot shot bases'.

There are other words on Page 183 but all are about 'bases'. Page 35 is the key part

'Regimental guns markers do not count as bases.'

[ravenflight]

R

Page 182. Detached Shot.

'a player whose army includes mixed battle groups of pike and shot can detached shot bases from up to half such battle groups to create new "temporary" battle groups of between 2-8 medium foot shot bases'.

There are other words on Page 183 but all are about 'bases'. Page 35 is the key part

'Regimental guns markers do not count as bases.'

Good call.

[rbodleyscott]

Also, if 2 BG's of 4shot 2pike (P&S without regimental Gun) detatch their shot, can they produce a:

4 shot 4 pike (only legal formation would be:




As the pike cannot be in deeper formations unless all shot are detached)

and a second BG of 4 shot?

Yes

I can't see anything in the rules on detaching shot, however it would be unweildy as they would never legally be able to form a column. Presumably they would be able to form an illegal formation (until reformed) if forced, but never voluntarily.

they could form a column by turning 90 degrees

[rbodleyscott]

R

Page 182. Detached Shot.

'a player whose army includes mixed battle groups of pike and shot can detached shot bases from up to half such battle groups to create new "temporary" battle groups of between 2-8 medium foot shot bases'.

There are other words on Page 183 but all are about 'bases'. Page 35 is the key part

'Regimental guns markers do not count as bases.'

Good call.

Less of a technicality than that - the rules allow you to detach shot. RGs are not shot. (See definition of shot on page 25)

[ravenflight]

they could form a column by turning 90 degrees

I disagree with this (maybe the pedant comig out in me) - top of p138:

Composite battle groups cannot adopt a formation (in this case a column) with pike deeper (in this case 4 ranks deep) than they would have been in the original battle group unless all shot have been detached (which they haven't)

[kevinj]

Good spot Mr Pedant!

What I don't get is why anyone would want this split instead of 1 BG of 8 Shot and 1 of 4 Pike.

[ravenflight]

Good spot Mr Pedant!

What I don't get is why anyone would want this split instead of 1 BG of 8 Shot and 1 of 4 Pike.

Well, I don't say that they do. It was examples to get my head around the rules.

[rbodleyscott]

Good spot Mr Pedant!

What I don't get is why anyone would want this split instead of 1 BG of 8 Shot and 1 of 4 Pike.

Makes quite a good artillery defence unit, as the shot stick out both sides, so you don't lose any shooting capability.

[rbodleyscott]

they could form a column by turning 90 degrees

I disagree with this (maybe the pedant comig out in me) - top of p138:

Composite battle groups cannot adopt a formation (in this case a column) with pike deeper (in this case 4 ranks deep) than they would have been in the original battle group unless all shot have been detached (which they haven't)

I guess so, though, of course, that is an unintentional effect of that rule.