Victory conditions for timed-out games

[the_iron_duke]

Despite having played many games of FoG I'm still a bit confused by the victory conditions for games that reach the end of their turn limit. I have a couple of questions:

a) In the rules it says:

Marginal Victory
If the game continues to the end of the last player turn without a Decisive Victory, then the two sides divide their total break points by their army score.
If the difference in the two army scores is equal to or greater than 25% then the player with the lowest break point is declared the winner with Marginal Victory.

I am winning a game by a margin of greater than 25% but the Victory Screen says it's a draw. The game may run out of turns soon but I'm not sure if that would mean a victory for me or a draw.

b) Are there 24 or 26 turns? The game is saying there are 26 turns but I've also had games that have finished after 24 turns before.

[stockwellpete]

a) a draw

b) 24 turns

[the_iron_duke]

Is what's written in the rules wrong then...?

[stockwellpete]

Is what's written in the rules wrong then...?

I dunno.

EDIT: Erm, yes - the "marginal victory" rule is not used in any of our competitions as far as I know. If you had decided to use it in your competition then you would have awarded me the group match against Fedem and probably yourself the group match versus Turk1964. Do you agree?

[the_iron_duke]

Is what's written in the rules wrong then...?

I dunno.

EDIT: Erm, yes - the "marginal victory" rule is not used in any of our competitions as far as I know. If you had decided to use it in your competition then you would have awarded me the group match against Fedem and probably yourself the group match versus Turk1964. Do you agree?

The thing is I wouldn't as those two draws were much closer and didn't go past the specified 25% margin:

97% vs 79% = 18% margin
75% vs 65% = 10% margin

Whereas the game in question is currently:

95% vs 47% = 48% margin

Since a place in the final of the most glorious and noble tournament is at stake, and you and I are the contestants, let us wait for independent sages to exercise their Solomon-like wisdom to the conundrum.

[stockwellpete]

Get on with it, man! My lot are freezing their nuts off!

[stockwellpete]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=22616

[the_iron_duke]

I ran two small test scenarios to see what happened when the turns ran out.

When the margin of BGs lost between the armies was over 25% the message read:

The game is over.
A marginal victory for you!

When the margin between the armies was less than 25% the message read:

The game is over.
It is a draw!

This is working in the way described in the rules. However, in both circumstances the Victory Status screen says 'Current Draw'. So it seems there is some discrepancy and ambiguity with the rules and result notification saying one thing and the Victory Screen showing something else.

[Turk1964]

Gday to you both and i take it a draw is on the cards .I have had a few draws lately,around 8 and its really a bit of a triumpth sometimes to manage a draw when things looked very dire.In a contest i think you should outline the outcome of a draw the way Pete has in his Knockout challange.If everyone knows this from the start then there can be no arguments.I would go the way of most BPs lost but as i say this should be outlined in the rules to begin with.If you want i can toss a coin for you both and that will decide the winner
Cheers Turk

[the_iron_duke]

In a contest i think you should outline the outcome of a draw the way Pete has in his Knockout challange.If everyone knows this from the start then there can be no arguments.

The victory conditions are laid out clearly in the Field of Glory rule set. It should go with out saying that the rules of the game are the rules of the game unless specified otherwise. It seems I am being penalised for SP and yourself's lack of understanding of the rule set. Are there any Field of Glory rules that you have decided to opt out of?

The rule on marginal victory after the turns run out is articulated in words and sentences in the rule set and is built into the programming of the game with the result notifier. The only room for confusion is the Victory Screen which does not update itself from displaying a Draw status, but the Victory Screen has proved itself to be an unreliable indicator by showing there to be 26 turns when there are actually 24 turns.

[stockwellpete]

It seems I am being penalised for SP and yourself's lack of understanding of the rule set.

"Custom and practice", old chap. You have to break the other person's army to win and your comments during the second half of the game suggested that you were playing on that basis too (e.g. your "it is squeaky bum time" and "still a bit to do" -type comments). It was only when you thought I might escape that you stopped playing and raised the issue of this other rule that has not been used in any other tournament that I know of. A poor show on your part, if you ask me.

[the_iron_duke]

Well, to be honest this is not a situation that arises very often, probably once every few hundred games. Also, my comments as to it being a tense finale do apply equally to the desire to maintain an advantage of over 25% so you are misrepresenting them somewhat.

A poor show on your part, if you ask me.

It seems you're now taking it a bit personally where all I am concerned about are the dry rules of the game. In any competition, particularly between human players, the rules need to be clear and without grey areas. I tried to make the rules as clear as possible in the tournament and where we have become undone is with the ambiguity of the Victory Screen for which the makers of the game are responsible. It's disappointing that they have let this situation arise and that they haven't fronted up in the forum and clarified the situation. However, since no Slitherine affiliates are forthcoming I shall acquiesce to the judgement of the veteran ericdoman1 who, despite being the other finalist, is a man whose opinions I respect.

[FedeM]

Maybe you guys can replay the game....

[stockwellpete]

Maybe you guys can replay the game....

Yes, that would be the obvious thing to do as there is a confusion about the rules here. "Custom and practice" is a quite reasonable line for me to argue. In LOEG, our main competition and which sets the standard for everything else we do, there are no marginal victory rules.

I did actually send an e-mail to Eric and Mark (Turk1964) this morning suggesting a way out of the impasse. I will put it on here later when Eric has had time to read it. I think he may be at work at the moment.

[stockwellpete]

It seems you're now taking it a bit personally where all I am concerned about are the dry rules of the game.

You are deluding yourself.

where we have become undone is with the ambiguity of the Victory Screen for which the makers of the game are responsible. It's disappointing that they have let this situation arise and that they haven't fronted up in the forum and clarified the situation.

Yes, there is ambiguity. Both cases can be argued equally convincingly - "the rules is the rules" versus "custom and practice". What is disappointing is that as organiser of the tournament you are not recognising that a re-match, with a rule clarification, is the only fair way to proceed. I have played the game according to "custom and practice", if I had known the rules were different then I would not have abandoned my Swiss contingent and who can say what would have happened.

And please remember, I was the one who started the thread seeking clarification about the rule all that time ago (March 2011). TGM's (a sage if ever there was one! )reply backs up my "custom and practice" argument, another player says follow the rules - so no clarification there then.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=22616

[stockwellpete]

Maybe you guys can replay the game....

Yes, that would be the obvious thing to do as there is a confusion about the rules here. "Custom and practice" is a quite reasonable line for me to argue. In LOEG, our main competition and which sets the standard for everything else we do, there are no marginal victory rules.

I did actually send an e-mail to Eric and Mark (Turk1964) this morning suggesting a way out of the impasse. I will put it on here later when Eric has had time to read it. I think he may be at work at the moment.

Right, Eric should be back by now. This is the text of the e-mail I sent early this morning to Eric and Mark (Turk1964) asking for advice about the situation,

"Hello Eric and Turk1964,

The "iron-duke" seems to have disappeared now! He hasn't moved for a couple of days and there has been nothing on the forum. I don't want to ruin the tournament so what should I do?

I am a bit annoyed with him that he only dug up this rule when it started to look like I could escape with the draw. There are four turns each left in the game and he needs just 2 break points to defeat me but I have got all my damaged units well away from him and I am using my skirmishers to deny him double moves. There will be no more melee-ing in the game because I am too far away and his pikes can only go 1 hex a turn over rough terrain. He can only shoot at me really and none of my units in range are remotely near their break point. I reckon my chances of surviving to the end of turn 24 are 75%+.

Having said all this, I am quite prepared to step down if it means the tournament can be finished. As I have said to him during the game, I am going to stop playing FOG after this tournament. I have had enough of the game now. So it doesn't really matter that much to me what happens in this tournament. When the new version of FOG comes out next year then I will give the game another look but I think I will probably not play much until Version 2.0 is released much later in 2013. I will be getting a new lap-top soon and I will be able to play the bigger historical games like Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings.

So please advise me what to do. If you think I should resign this game then I will.

Cheers,

Pete"

[the_iron_duke]

You are deluding yourself.

Saying that it was "a poor show on your part, if you ask me" and that you were "a bit annoyed with him that he only dug up this rule when it started to look like I could escape with the draw" insinuates that I used underhand tactics in our game. As the battle was nearing its conclusion and with our understandings of the rules of the game appearing to be at a divergence I feel it is only right and proper that I put the game on hold while the situation could be clarified in the forum.

The way I have decided to proceed is this: although the game is incomplete with three turns left to play, I am calling time on it now. The 48% margin gives me a marginal victory as per the Field of Glory rules. I am then withdrawing from the competition which makes ericdoman1 the tournament winner by default. Congratulations, Eric. Sorry you could not play a final game to prove your worth but I think it is better this way and I'm sure you would have won in any case.

I had a new competition ready to go but I think I'm shelving it now. However, so that a similar situation is not repeated in the future could players disclose now whether there are any other parts of the Field of Glory rule set that are disregarded for reasons of "custom and practice"?

[stockwellpete]

The way I have decided to proceed is this: although the game is incomplete with three turns left to play, I am calling time on it now.

No, you can't do that - it is not in the rules!

[Turk1964]

Well what a disapointment that was and very poor showing from the tournament organiser You have just decided at the last momment that you win and then you withdraw from the contest.You had no provision for a draw in the finals so resort to Fog tournament rules. Which i add were not included in your rules at all.The right thing to do is have a rematch but i guess thats not goiung to happen.You have some excellent influential players in this tournament and doubt anyone will play in your contests in the future. You cant just change the rules to suit your self that is very poor form

[FedeM]

Hi,

This was stated on the tournament rules:

If there's a draw in the knockout stage there will be a rematch.

As far as I know in all competitions if no army was able to brake the other, the outcome has always been considered a draw. No matter what the game says on the details after it ended.
So unless it is specified by the rules tournament, the proper and commom thing to do would be a rematch.

So comeon guys; stop throwing useless rocks against each other and make a rematch.

Tks!