Winning a DV on FM on East Coast

[Numdydar]

How the hell does anyone do this? I have gotten DV's in EVERY scenerio on FM up to this point. I must have tried 20 differnt ways, with changing my core, adding more Strat bombers, etc. and nothing I do works. I can even get 90% of my troops ashore by the end of turn 3 (mainly by landing North of DC so the BBs will not slaughter me. You have to get to Fort Knox and points South by the end of Turn 11 for a DV. So that gives you a maximum of 7 turns after everyone is ashore and can all move.

has anyone actually done thsi? If so could you please post your core and EXACTLY how you did it?

I do not see how this is possible as it takes me, even with 4 Strat bombers and all my ships, about 5 turns to clear the seas. Which means can't land in the far South until then (without losing units anyway). So add units to the map on turn 5, takes 2 turns to land so turn 7, so turn 8 can move with 3 turns left to capture everything. Just does not seem possible.

[KeldorKatarn]

I've landed units in the south, but yeah, not before turn 6, and it didn't really speed me up. I've made it barely in 12 turns once, but so far I have not been able to pull this off either. The units are not fast enough and the landing area is too well defended to land immediately. I need to clean out bunkers and bombers first or I take losses that slow me down. but even if I'm very lucky and can land immediately, I don't see how anyone can do this reliably in 11 turns or less (considering there are difficulty levels that give you even less time)

Can anyone that has mastered this scenario do a let's play video or something? I would really like to see someone do this. As the OP I have yet to come up with a core and/or strategy to pull this off. Of course I have only tried it in one playthrough yet, so maybe a core with more experience would help, which would require better performance earlier on, but I'd still like to know what I might want to work towards to be able to make this.

The middle US scenario was simple enough, west was very very hard and east seemed impossible to pull off. Minor victory was no big deal, major is a whole differnet story.

[Kerensky]

When I played this scenario a while ago, even I struggled for that DV. Rather than beat my head on it over and over though trying to perfect it (you think FM is bad try Manstein oi) I accepted my Marginal Victory and moved on to the American Midwest. East is hard not because of tough American opposition, but because it is such a huge race. Perhaps a specially designed CORE could manage it, with lots of Panthers and some lucky +movement heroes.

[Kamerer]

I have not played it in a loooong time, but never managed but an mv - got within a few turns of a DV, never closer.

Somewhere, there IS a detailed description of how to do it; try using the search function and some various operands and you'll find it. I don't recall who posted it and precisely what they did, but from reading their detailed instructions it did sound like it would certainly work. I believe a key was holding a floating force in reserve to the south until enemy surface units were defeated or drawn north, and then making a 2nd landing in force on two southern coastal spots. After reading it, I tried a variation on that and I did get within a few turns of a DV. Also, now that I think about it, I believe recall I had a one or two nicely mobility-bonused Panthers, and that was indeed key to getting close, just like Kerensky said. Search and ye shall find...

[KeldorKatarn]

Well to be honest... if even Kerensky cannot pull this off reliably... doesn't that mean this scenario is a bit unbalanced? I mean DV should be reliably possible if you are playing really well shouldn't it? it seems it is significantly harder than any other scenario. And I still haven't heard from anybody who can pull this off most of the time...

[Numdydar]

I still have not heard anyone post here on how to get a DV. I tried again and scrapped most of my Inf in order to beef up my number of planes. Still could not do it. This was with 7 jets and 6 Strat bombers. The issue with this game is that it just takes too long to land. The absolute best you can do is about six troops available to move by turn 3. You may be able to get another 6-7 on shore and ready for action by turn 4. Which give you exactly 7 turns to capture the entire map.

Plus unless you like watching your units die, all these landings have to be between DC and New York. I have yet to anyone to land South of DC and not die before being able to link up.

There is an AAR about wining this scenerio, but that was not on FM but Col. I tried that strategy and I can attest it will NOT work on FM

So I am still hoping that someone somewhere has been able to do this on FM. Otherwise the ONLY way to unlock the other dificulty levels is to cheat by editing the registery. So why have these difficulties in the game at all if the only way to unlock them is to cheat? Might as well just add them to the base game and be done with it.

Needless to say, I am NOT happy about this AT ALL

[Rudankort]

To unlock bonus difficulty levels, you only need to beat the final scenario decisively, which means the victory in all war.

AFAIR, on default level (Colonel) this scenario is not a big problem to beat, and DV is not strictly necessary to proceed, so I don't see why the whole situation is causing so much trouble. Harder difficulty means that you do face harder challenges from time to time, doesn't it?

[Numdydar]

To unlock bonus difficulty levels, you only need to beat the final scenario decisively, which means the victory in all war.

AFAIR, on default level (Colonel) this scenario is not a big problem to beat, and DV is not strictly necessary to proceed, so I don't see why the whole situation is causing so much trouble. Harder difficulty means that you do face harder challenges from time to time, doesn't it?

I read somewhere you had to get DVs on FM on ALL the maps to get these unlocked. So if I understand you correctly, all you need to do is get MVs on all the scenerios in the GC EXECPT the last one WC US where you have to get a DV to unlock the bonus levels? If that is true (and I sure would like a source for thsi) then you are correct, as I can definately get a MV on the EC on FM as that give me seven more turns.

However, this raises another point though. Why even have a setup where it is absoultely to immpossible to acheive it (DV on FM)? So the scenerio is definately busted. I have to wonder if anyone actually even playtested this on FM? Because if they had, the conditions would be much different. I would suggest that if the Devs EVER want to fix this map, make the DV 18 turns and a MV 22. As this is more in the relms of possible versus impossible.

[Kerensky]

However, this raises another point though. Why even have a setup where it is absoultely to immpossible to acheive it (DV on FM)? So the scenerio is definately busted. I have to wonder if anyone actually even playtested this on FM? Because if they had, the conditions would be much different. I would suggest that if the Devs EVER want to fix this map, make the DV 18 turns and a MV 22. As this is more in the relms of possible versus impossible.

It's been suggested before.

[KeldorKatarn]

Well, there is a difference between a hard challenge and "impossible to do". I enjoy a challenge, but I need to know it is possible in the first place. So far I've heard only comments confirming that is probably is not.

[Rudankort]

I read somewhere you had to get DVs on FM on ALL the maps to get these unlocked. So if I understand you correctly, all you need to do is get MVs on all the scenerios in the GC EXECPT the last one WC US where you have to get a DV to unlock the bonus levels? If that is true (and I sure would like a source for thsi) then you are correct, as I can definately get a MV on the EC on FM as that give me seven more turns.

What kind of source do you want? I coded the game to unlock the bonus difficulties, so I should know how it works, shouldn't I? In many cases you do need a DV in order to proceed down the right campaign path. Your goal is to win the war. Conquer Great Britain, USSR and USA. But as long as this is acheived, specific victory types in each particular scenario do not matter.

However, this raises another point though. Why even have a setup where it is absoultely to immpossible to acheive it (DV on FM)? So the scenerio is definately busted. I have to wonder if anyone actually even playtested this on FM? Because if they had, the conditions would be much different. I would suggest that if the Devs EVER want to fix this map, make the DV 18 turns and a MV 22. As this is more in the relms of possible versus impossible.

If many people complained about it when the game was originally released, we might have changed this, but I don't remember anything like this. Before any action can be made, the problem must be understood. You say that there is a strategy to win this scen on Colonel, but it does not work on FM. How so? The differences between Colonel and FM are not all that huge.
- The player gains experience slower, but by this late stage of the war it should be perfectly possible to compensate for this.
- The AI has more prestige, but I doubt this affects the initial stages of this battle (landing phase) at all.
- Finally, the AI is set to level 2 instead of 1. This allows it to use some more advanced moves, but again, I seriously doubt that minor tweaks in AI algorithms suddenly create such a huge difference.

I would rather suspect that on FM all previous scenarios are a bit more difficult, so you have a tougher game and end up with weaker core by USA landing, compared to easier difficulties. But this is exactly what the difficulties are for.

[Kerensky]

The problem with USA East Coast, and I do remember this being stated in the past, can actually be broken down into a formula.

30 hexes in 11 turns with 3 task forces.
19 hexes in 14 turns with 2 task forces.
26 hexes in 14 turns with 2 task forces.

Explanation:
In USA East Coast, there are 3 victory hexes that are roughly 30 hexes from the closest player's starting position. In order to get a decisive victory, all victory hexes, included these three, must be taken in 11 turns. This scenario has no paratrooper transports available to the German side.

Compared to Sealion 40, another somewhat difficult scenario, which has 2 victory hexes that are roughly 19 hexes from the closest player's starting position. In order to get a decisive victory, all victory hexes, included these two, must be taken in 14 turns. This scenario has 6 paratrooper transports available, 2 of which are already used as bonus AUX units.

Compared to Moscow41, another difficult scenario of the base game, which has 2 victory hexes clusters that are roughly 26 hexes from the closest player's starting position. In order to get a decisive victory, all victory hexes, included these two, must be taken in 14 turns. This scenario has 6 paratrooper transports available, 0 of which are already used as bonus AUX units. It should be noted that weather does have a significant affect on this scenario. If the skies remain clear and you are not bogged down in mud, this scenario becomes remarkably easier to win a DV.

So in summary:
USA East you need to move 30 hexes with 3 separate task forces (objectives too wide spread) in 11 turns. Also note that all player ground forces begin in naval transport, and precious turns are lost moving these units at naval speed and also to disembark them all. Again, note there is no help from airborne forces to help expedite this process.

In Sealion40, you need to move 19 hexes in 14 turns with at least 2 separate task forces. Again there is the problem of being slowed down by starting in naval transport, but here there are lots of extra airborne assets to help reach distant objectives.

In Moscow41, you need to move 26 hexes in 14 turns with at least 2 separate task forces. Weather is a concern, but here there are lots of extra airborne assets.

Simply put, USA East Coast simply does not allot the amount of time or airborne support necessary to cover the rather large distances required.
Ultimately though, both a DV and MV on East Coast allows the player to continue with the American campaign. As stated, the necessary DV to unlock the extra difficulties is for West Coast(and British India now I believe) only, so the punishing race against time that USA East represents doesn't cause a progression block, just an annoyance for those of us who don't want our glorious campaigns stained with a mere marginal victory.

[KeldorKatarn]

So you're saying it is not even theoretically possible to win this scenario in a DV?

[deducter]

Theoretically I think this scenario is doable, but it would require extreme good luck and probably copious save/reload to win.

You'll notice that there are 3 DV hexes in the southwestern part of the map that are unguarded. In my experience, if the AI has core slots free, it will buy defensive units towards the frontline VH where it can see your threatening units. It won't buy units towards the rear unless it has no choice. You can exploit the AI's tendency by not capturing some combination of Washington, Richmond, and Virginia Beach but leave units in sight of these cities so the AI will reinforce them. Send 3 recon units (along with strong, overstrength tanks to deal with the American armor counterattack) to race towards the southwestern VH and a strong force to race towards Fort Knox. Avoid destroying the AI's core that you don't need to kill (hint hint, the AI's ships, especially avoid killing destroyers). Once you have those in hand, time your capture for the remaining VH on the eastern seaboard on the same turn.

[KeldorKatarn]

Frankly, that is silly and exploiting game mechanics. The scenario should be winnable without such exploits which force the player into totally unrealistic behavior. If the concensus really is that this scenario cannot be done on FM in a DV, then I have to ask why it was designed this way?

[Kamerer]

Frankly, that is silly and exploiting game mechanics. The scenario should be winnable without such exploits which force the player into totally unrealistic behavior. If the concensus really is that this scenario cannot be done on FM in a DV, then I have to ask why it was designed this way?

I don't think so at all. Let's step back a second and look at the 'big' picture:

The idea that, even with Britain and the USSR out of the war, and with the resources thus available to focus on this task - that the Reich could mount a trans-Atlantic offensive and land an overwhelming, "decisive" assault on the US east coast with a high probability of success is unrealistic. It would take a massively unlikely and fortuitous alignment of stars and fortune to pull off a "DV" in real life. And the game mimics that.

And sure, it sounds like "silly... game mechanics" at first to manipulate the AI behaviour. But think a second -that also represents sound combat tactics. Wounding instead of killing - so as to create a greater logistics burden on the opponent. That is precisely what leaving units is about. And "controlling" a battle area (victory hex/VH) but not taking it so as to manipulate your opponent into a resource-wasteful strategy is also sound. Think of Falkenhayn's strategy at Verdun in 1916.

I used to think a lot of things in the game were 'unfair' or silly, but then the more I played and thought about it, they can have very exact parallels to sound principles of warfare. I don't necessarily believe they were always intentionally designed that way, but it does argue that the "logic" built into the games AI results in not-unreasonable behaviour. So if deducter - who I think knows as much about the game mechanics as ANYONE out there, describes how to get a DV in very "mechanistic" turns, don't get too offended. The results usually have some reasonable parallel in real life.

And the idea that you need to always earn a DV was something that drove me when I first started playing. And as I played higher levels, and the locked levels, it was apparent that the challenge was sometimes realizing that wasting resources on a vanity DV when an MV achieved just as much was a part of the game. So I don't think it means a scenario is "unbalanced" if a DV is rare/hard at the highest level of difficulty.

[zappel]

The whole discussion was started because of the statement you have to win all scenarios on FM-level to achieve the bonus levels. This seems not be the truth:

To unlock bonus difficulty levels, you only need to beat the final scenario decisively, which means the victory in all war.

and

I coded the game to unlock the bonus difficulties, so I should know how it works, shouldn't I? In many cases you do need a DV in order to proceed down the right campaign path. Your goal is to win the war. Conquer Great Britain, USSR and USA. But as long as this is acheived, specific victory types in each particular scenario do not matter.

If anyone should know, he is the man.
I'll restart the vanilla campaign to unlock the bonus levels because I always stopped at East Coast (while reaching only a MV - unfortunately I have no savegame any more).

But I also agree with the former posts: it is annoying not to win all the scenarios with a DV. I doubt myself that apparently everyone else could win a DV as Fm but not me (and some other desperate players)!!!

[KeldorKatarn]

As I said, I don't mind the scenario to be ridiculously hard (it is landing on the US coast after all, which is a very unlikely scenario in the first place). But as a player I also need to know in the back of my mind that what I'm trying to do is actually doable. I mean last time I did this I tried 20 times before moving on. If all that time I tried to pull something off that just cannot be done I'd feel kind of cheated.

[Rudankort]

As I said, I don't mind the scenario to be ridiculously hard (it is landing on the US coast after all, which is a very unlikely scenario in the first place). But as a player I also need to know in the back of my mind that what I'm trying to do is actually doable. I mean last time I did this I tried 20 times before moving on. If all that time I tried to pull something off that just cannot be done I'd feel kind of cheated.

Fair enough. If DV in this scenario is impossible even on Colonel, this could be considered a design flaw. Higher difficulties is a different story, I'm sure many players will find Manstein impossible in many scens, even after 20 attempts. But on default difficulty it should be doable. So guys, did anyone at all manage a DV in this scen on Colonel? Scenario comparisions are interesting, but they do not tell the full story.

[KeldorKatarn]

Right, that was what I was curious about. So far it could be that my core was not right or I just wasn't fast eough (although after 20 trys the only alternative is probably that with a better more experienced core I might be a few turns faster. But my impression was really that I just couldn't cover the distance fast enough, the fighting wasn't really the issue.
But that being said I'd just like to know like the OP whether anyone can relyably do this on Colonel or not. So far I have never heard from anyone who's done this.

As soon as I see anyone do it successfully, the discussion is over. but if nobody can pull it off, there should be 1 or 2 turns more available I remember I came within 1 or 2 turns, but most of the time I was at least missing 1 if not 2 turns. And that just to cover the distance of one more turn of movement. I seriously believe that if we had 1 more turn this would be doable. maybe 2 but I think it is possible even with 1 more. still incredibly hard to do, but possible.

I remember that in the original Panzer General's Washington scenario you could have a real problem using Tiger IIs because they were not fast enough and had less fuel, so going with the Panthers was the way to go. In this scenario I mostly went for Panthers and JagdPanthers for that exact reason. I knew I needed to cover distance very fast and with possibly no turn to refuel. but that still didn't seem to be enough. if I had used Tigers and King Tigers I would have known what I was doing wrong. but with the fastest units available...

One thing I can say. It is 100% possible to take all objectives except Fort Knox in the time limit. I can pull that one off reliably, easy. But fort knox is the issue. if you dedicate enough forces to it to attack it early and take it fast, the other cities are reinforced too much to be taken by the other forces. So taking everything but fort knox, or including fort knox missing one other city is possible. But All of them together... that just seems to be missing a turn or two. Especially since Fort Knox forces are so incredibly entrenched and the tank forces also need bombardment to be taken down fast. So you just need the turns to hammer that city with artillery. And that artillery need to rearm and refuel too.

At least that was my experience. Maybe even allowing one or two more units in the core would help. One or two more artillery might actually do the trick, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure that 1 more turn could do it.

But as I said, if someone can do it in the current turn limit without exploiting game mechanics, but playing like in any other scenario, then it is ok as is. I'd just like to see it being done