We used battle wagons for the first time last night. We got the rules wrong, but it has pursuaded me to read the rules again. Only counting one rank or file when assessing base count seems wrong.
A group of four battle wagons advances. It cannot charge or shoot ahead, so must take a CMT to turn 90 degrees and end two by two. This is acceptable, however, now in its immobile, side on fighting position, it has become twice as vulnerable and counts only as 4 bases on a 4 base frontage rather than the 8 when the horses were leading. In a shooting exchange with longbow on a four base frontage, the wagons are going to take an average of two hits per bound. This is a CT with a -1 for "1 per two bases" each time. They reply with only four dice, probably on 5's if crossbow armed. It will be a massacre.
Logic suggests that the men behind the cover of the wagons ought to be in a stronger position in a shooting fight than their opponents. As the rules stand, they would be better advised to stand in front of the wagons!
Shooting as two dice per base width might be too much, but counting two dice per wagon for either two ranks or two files would at least offer a measure of protection.
Battle wagon woes
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rbodleyscott
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We don't envisage Battle Wagons advancing in line abreast, but in line astern. For maximum effect they should never turn 90 degree, but should wheel into position as a single base wide column. Then they are 1 file and they all count for HP3B.
For historical and game balance they have to have less shooting dice (per base width) than crossbows. If you assume that a BW base contains 250 men they are in fact getting double the dice of bows, which reflects their advantageous position. Certainly you can safely assume that a BW base includes less shooters than 4 bases of crossbows, so giving them 2 shooting dice each is generous enough.
Also everything except artillery shoots at battle wagons at - POA, which reflects the cover provided by the wagons. If they are in line astern (and there is no sensible reason for them to be in any other formation in a shoot-out), they will all count for HP3B.
We don't want battle wagons to be more effective than they are currently. Against their historical opponents they work well enough. We can only speculate what would have happened if they had fought longbowmen - it didn't happen.
A Hussite battle wagon costs less points than 4 protected MF crossbow bases, shoots as well as 4 LF crossbow bases, is not at risk of being ridden down by cavalry, and 1 BW can fight 2 heavily armoured knights (costing twice as many points) or 4 armoured halberdiers (costing 50% more points) in impact and melee close combat on equal terms.
For historical and game balance they have to have less shooting dice (per base width) than crossbows. If you assume that a BW base contains 250 men they are in fact getting double the dice of bows, which reflects their advantageous position. Certainly you can safely assume that a BW base includes less shooters than 4 bases of crossbows, so giving them 2 shooting dice each is generous enough.
Also everything except artillery shoots at battle wagons at - POA, which reflects the cover provided by the wagons. If they are in line astern (and there is no sensible reason for them to be in any other formation in a shoot-out), they will all count for HP3B.
We don't want battle wagons to be more effective than they are currently. Against their historical opponents they work well enough. We can only speculate what would have happened if they had fought longbowmen - it didn't happen.
A Hussite battle wagon costs less points than 4 protected MF crossbow bases, shoots as well as 4 LF crossbow bases, is not at risk of being ridden down by cavalry, and 1 BW can fight 2 heavily armoured knights (costing twice as many points) or 4 armoured halberdiers (costing 50% more points) in impact and melee close combat on equal terms.
Another realistic paradigm shift I suspect Roger. It feels like you are trying to calibrate too much to DBM rather than reality, and will fidnt he hussites as much fun as I did once you play them to fit te FOG rules instead.
In FOG:
1/ BWg need to work in columns to get firing and to get enough bases into the battle
2/ They are very very hard to shoot off with shooting - +1 for BWg means you need 4 hits to make them lose a base
3/ Their shooting power is though only moderate - they can and should be outshot by mass bowmen of decent quality. Yes they have cover but they have few numbers and are acutally very vulnerable for firing due to horses/bullocks etc.
4/ They are mainly there as defense against fighting - this they are execellent at vs mounted and decent vs foot due to 2 dice per frotnage each time and +s in impact and cancellation of impact factors
a 4 base BG test on 3 hits and gets -1 on 4 hits. Typically they are shot at by 2 or 3 dice each at 5s if you have enough bowmen - but you need to deploy 16 bowmen to take on 4 BWg to do this. IF 3 then you expect 1 per Bwg as hits which does the -1 - if only 2 you expect them to test. But rarely loose a base.
They need a 7 to pass and will generally have no or 1 - and a plus for a general. Odds of passing are therefore pretty high. Clearly if someone masses 16 bowmen onto 4 Bwgs the BWgs will get out shot and eventually crumble but this makes sense to me. That's waht the small detahced units of HA Helberdiers are for - go get 'em.
It takes a hwile to bust a hussite with shooting alone - you rally need tog et stuck into BWg to knock them out enough to get a big win.
Si
In FOG:
1/ BWg need to work in columns to get firing and to get enough bases into the battle
2/ They are very very hard to shoot off with shooting - +1 for BWg means you need 4 hits to make them lose a base
3/ Their shooting power is though only moderate - they can and should be outshot by mass bowmen of decent quality. Yes they have cover but they have few numbers and are acutally very vulnerable for firing due to horses/bullocks etc.
4/ They are mainly there as defense against fighting - this they are execellent at vs mounted and decent vs foot due to 2 dice per frotnage each time and +s in impact and cancellation of impact factors
a 4 base BG test on 3 hits and gets -1 on 4 hits. Typically they are shot at by 2 or 3 dice each at 5s if you have enough bowmen - but you need to deploy 16 bowmen to take on 4 BWg to do this. IF 3 then you expect 1 per Bwg as hits which does the -1 - if only 2 you expect them to test. But rarely loose a base.
They need a 7 to pass and will generally have no or 1 - and a plus for a general. Odds of passing are therefore pretty high. Clearly if someone masses 16 bowmen onto 4 Bwgs the BWgs will get out shot and eventually crumble but this makes sense to me. That's waht the small detahced units of HA Helberdiers are for - go get 'em.
It takes a hwile to bust a hussite with shooting alone - you rally need tog et stuck into BWg to knock them out enough to get a big win.
Si
I understand this a little better now. The rules are pushing the wagons into columns rather than lines. Massing sufficient shooters against a one base wide column that counts as 8 bases will not be that easy.
I am in the process of preparing more figures for my Hussites so will get to down to the practical side of this eventually. Now that I understand what the intention of the rules is, it should be a little bit easier. Paul used the 'traditional' four abreast group with his Hungarians this week. I do not think he had considered using four in column either.
I am in the process of preparing more figures for my Hussites so will get to down to the practical side of this eventually. Now that I understand what the intention of the rules is, it should be a little bit easier. Paul used the 'traditional' four abreast group with his Hungarians this week. I do not think he had considered using four in column either.
I have tried my Hussites out a couple oftimes and they seem very enjoyabe and decently effective used in a way that matches history more and the rule mechanisms.
Look forward to hearing how you get on Roger. Also a few more bases on the table which makes it look pretty cool. The LART Bwgs are quite interesting as you get the -1 on Coh for opponents all the time. So if they do test things tend to go wrong a bit more for them
Look forward to hearign more and it will be great to see those RG hussites on the table.
My biggest happiness was that they were really good fun to use - not slow and dull at all. It is not an army I could have fielded enjoyable in other rules, but it is at FOG.
Si
Look forward to hearing how you get on Roger. Also a few more bases on the table which makes it look pretty cool. The LART Bwgs are quite interesting as you get the -1 on Coh for opponents all the time. So if they do test things tend to go wrong a bit more for them
Look forward to hearign more and it will be great to see those RG hussites on the table.
My biggest happiness was that they were really good fun to use - not slow and dull at all. It is not an army I could have fielded enjoyable in other rules, but it is at FOG.
Si