PZIIIN vs INF : where are the boys ?

[kokkorhekkus]

a question for veterans :

I'm really fond of my 3 X II flammen and 3 X IIIN on 1942 DLC.

What is the INF utility in 44 & 45 DLCs ?, It seems that except for an "escape perspective in front of JS1" the IIIN is always better than an INF. No ? and even a flammen for Berlin buildings seems to be a good choice vs russian Smg and Guards ?

[Resolute]

I don't think there is much need for them in the DLCs you mentioned since Tiger1+2 kill infantry just fine. The IIIN is one of my most fav. units and especially in DLC42 it really shines but his low HA and GD rating makes it really susceptible of taking quite a few hits later on.
As for the II Flamm, if you can avoid attacks from tanks that thing rocks but sadly it seems to have a bullseye painted on top of it. The AI just loves to attack that thing

At the end of the day, using those units or not comes down to personal preference.

[deducter]

I assume by INF you mean infantry. If you have infantry with heroes, especially INI and attack heroes, they will wreck tanks in close terrain. You can overstrength a 4-star grenadier 43 and watch it wipe out a IS-2 in a city hex in one hit. This is the best use of infantry in the late war IMO.

Keep in mind the critical advantage of infantry: when fighting in close terrain, it attacks the close defense of the opposing unit. Units like towed AT, artillery, the SU-100, etc. all have a close defense of 0.

[kokkorhekkus]

For the comparison it's between IIIN and INFs Resolute, I know Tigers can destroy all things in front of them but thanks for the reply, it confirms the interest before 43 of this unit. (and an all tiger undestructible force bored me I hope reforms will go on - cf variety/quality debate- in the future 'cause otherwise I will apply Deducter's costs for tigers. This day I've got 15 000 pp for Stalingrad Buz depot on FM level and I think if things go reasonnably well I will be able to change all my tanks to Tigers in the first '43 scenario, even in "Rommel" difficulty level for future long DLC camapaign.)

Deducter I think I see the point : does PZIIIN attack ground defense ennemy tanks in close terrain (buildings) because it's a tanks versus tank attack ?

If it doesnt i don't understand, close defense of IIIN is better or equal than greINF, initiative to, SA is better than greINF HA, so...

...and heros are for everybody...including IIIN. My IIIN over **** with def + 3 is funny to use even versus KV, and the other def + 2 and attack + 1 takes a cup of red russian fruits with the former after each scenario. And I wait stalingrad itself to change my two IIIL to IIIN. with 3 flammen & 4 IIIN i don't want to be gregory or igor for a moment.

nb : you're right Deducter, IA like flammen very much. Almost loosing one ( 1 step...ouf !) and another severely wounded in my last scenario.

It's for the interest of a varied core and esthetic & historic considerations. A core force with only IIIN , V, VI for the tanks and no INF is not very funny to see. INF will be remnants of long campaigns but an accent if only efficiencely considerations are used seems to reach that : Tigers & Panthers, and IIIN for close combat considérations.

[deducter]

I'm not going to comment on the core composition philosophy in this post, as that has been debated thoroughly already. If you have comments about my mod please post in my thread.

In terms of game mechanics, only infantry will attack the close defense of another unit in close terrain. No other unit can. So the Panzer IIIN in a city hex will fire against the ground defense of an attacking tank.

Keep in mind heroes add a flat boost to the stats of a unit. For instance, if a Panzer IIIN with a +3 def hero is attacked in a city hex by an infantry, the Panzer IIIN will have a defense of 4 +3 + experience/entrenchment modifiers. So a defense hero is a huge boost in close terrain when fighting against infantry. Similarly, attack heroes apply to both soft and hard attack, and initiative heroes apply for units that are initiative-capped in close terrain and in bad weather.

[jaggy]

... initiative heroes apply for units that are initiative-capped in close terrain and in bad weather.

@deducter - Just need a clarification. Are you saying that initiative heroes ignore the initiative caps of close terrain and bad weather? In short, that the initiative caps don't apply to initiative heroes? Thanks in advance.

[kokkorhekkus]

Thanks for all

The hero initiative is added to the cap so an inititiative hero have an advantage position for this kind of fighting.

exemple for jaggy : cap : 1 + INI 3 + die roll 0 = 4 IS BETTER than cap : 1 + die roll 2 = 3 and the hero unit fires first. (You have to use of "L" key after combat to see this sort of things)

deducter I will read with more attention your thread !

By deduction I think that IN DEEP BUILDING AREAS like Berlin a mix of heavyINFs + IIIN and perhaps II Flammen (if ennemy tanks are not too close) is a good choice for various situations encountered. So my long range planning for DLCs will be : Full use of IIIN & Flammen for Stalingrad, parcimonial or no use in '43 & '44, then full use again for the last defense scenario.

Buz Depot was easy but the material recolted not very fun. I have solded the ISU 122 but I will try the Sherman for "close combat 3 reasons" for the next Stalingrads scenario(s) and we will see if it's better than experimented INF against Smg russian units.

[jaggy]

Thanks kokkorhekkus, I really should pay more attention to the Combat Log. Thanks.

[brettz123]

I like the Flammpanzer and the IIIN but they are pretty useless by the end of 43. As already stated the Flammpanzer in partucular seems to attract enemy tanks. The nice thing about the Flammpanzer is that it gains prestige very quickly just like the StuGB. I get one as soon as possible.

I would suggest keeping the SU-122 as it can be artilllery and anti-tank. Very useful in my opinion!

[kokkorhekkus]

Thanks brettz i've forgotten the switching capacity AT/arty of the SU. And it's a fast but middling AT
But already deleted for this long campaign mmmff I think there will be another one or two in 1943 DLC to capture, I've see the listing

Flammen : first a question : what is "it gains prestige very quickly just like the StugB" ?" I don't understand. You mean experience ?
Then the use : yes it's a red flag for other ennemy tanks I use it with a tank screen in front of him, or when I'm pretty sure there is no T-34 on range to react, or in "deep buildings Stalingrad area secondary objectives" but what a superENG unit ! (I've got two, learned a tank lesson on docks because I lost the third ,- )
your sincerely, General Brettz ,-)

[brettz123]

Sorry I meant experience not prestige! It isn't a huge deal in the DLCs because you can pretty much max everything out during each year but in Afrika Korps it makes a difference at least . I might even give the old grand campaign a go again with the new units and see how that goes.

[dragos]

Try a Panzer IIIN versus KV-5 in a city hex and an infantry against the same unit. You will see the difference
Sometimes the best way to dislodge the most tough tanks in close terrain like city or forest remains the infantry

[brettz123]

Try a Panzer IIIN versus KV-5 in a city hex and an infantry against the same unit. You will see the difference
Sometimes the best way to dislodge the most tough tanks in close terrain like city or forest remains the infantry

Absolutely. The grenadiers are brutal against heavy tanks in close terrain. Every type has its purposes. I like the IIIN and Flammpanzer vs soft targets. Wait till you get a strength 15 flammpanzer. Just sick.

[kokkorhekkus]

Yes you're right dragos
For a moment I thinked that close combat rules applies between tanks too but it's not the case at all !

I'm on DLC 43 after an "all DVs 1942 DLC" for my second long time DLC campaign (level FM and first of one stopped at the middle of the south Bracnh 43). So I'm
(some losses but not too much at Sevastopol Assault & Storming Stalingrad) ...for 39-42 only a MV on the "rain drive" to Moscou 41 because of bad weather luck for most of part)

Without Rommel level or Deducter's mod it's true that we have the pp to change some or all PZIIIN to Tigers

I keep the II Flammen for Partisans in the Orel scenario after another two DVs on the first 43' part. I think I will update the *** Flammen after Orel for a Tiger (because of "mov hero")

I have to ask myself if I will go for a DV on Orel this evening or accept a second MV, in my memory it's a difficult scenario with a second tough wave of Russian units, just at the moment you think "all is well let's go to the Russian objective).

And I want to play the north branch after that so sufficient infantry will be necessary I suppose

[Longasc]

I agree to what dragos and brettz123 said. Infantry is very useful, no doubt.

I just have trouble to get them through the late war scenarios and get them some experience. My general experience so far is that my Infantry gets decimated over the course of the war. I don't have much Infantry left to destroy tanks in close terrain, I rather have StuH42 or PzIIIN or well Tigers to deal with hordes of soft targets/enemy Infantry.

[brettz123]

I agree to what dragos and brettz123 said. Infantry is very useful, no doubt.

I just have trouble to get them through the late war scenarios and get them some experience. My general experience so far is that my Infantry gets decimated over the course of the war. I don't have much Infantry left to destroy tanks in close terrain, I rather have StuH42 or PzIIIN or well Tigers to deal with hordes of soft targets/enemy Infantry.

I pretty much stop using infantry during the 1944 DLC just because if you have enough prestige the Tiger is an all around amazing unit. Good against everything with no real down side.

[kokkorhekkus]

Yes, Tigers are useful !
But I think it's too much easy even on FM. On Orel scenario almost a DV in my second tentative (noc hetas or reload) , I missed a close arty for the last objective to go into with one of my tigers. For Kursk I will change my last IVs and IIIn to Panthers (for the fun because close defense is better on Tigers i think)

But infantry is a necessity at the last scenario(s) of '45, no ?

I continue this FM Campaign to see all te scenarios then for the future I will use deducter's changes...AND/OR "Rommel" level. Rommel + deducter = a good challenge and no 95% DVs I'm pretty sure. But the two changes for the same campaign is perhaps too much ? Have you try this ? (Romm + deducter's stats)

[brettz123]

But infantry is a necessity at the last scenario(s) of '45, no ?

I continue this FM Campaign to see all te scenarios then for the future I will use deducter's changes...AND/OR "Rommel" level. Rommel + deducter = a good challenge and no 95% DVs I'm pretty sure. But the two changes for the same campaign is perhaps too much ? Have you try this ? (Romm + deducter's stats)

I didn't think they were necessary in the 45 campaigns. They are useful in scenarios that take place in built up areas but they are susceptible to artillery which can cause you some trouble. As long as your prestige is good you are still better off with them. Just back them up with artillery and they aren't very vulnerable to infantry themselves.