Mounted

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I can't get my mounted to work.

I've only played a handful of games, but it seems that I'm being well and truly out played by just going into a frontal combat.

Last time I played it was two ranks of Scots Covenanter mounted vs 1 rank (with 1 extra base in reserve) of Louis XIV cavalry.

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

He was using some kind of mounted in two ranks with average/armoured/shooting pistol/pistol.

So, at impact I am up, but in melee he is up and just seems to go through me like a dose of salts - superiority counting for nothing much at all

Maybe I've just had a run of bad luck, but it seems that I can't get them to work properly. Maybe I'm using them wrong - I dunno.

Are Determined Horse 'not all that great'?

Lastly, does it seem a bit odd that the Brits in the League of Augsburg can be armoured and the French can't? That makes the Brits better than the French, and the French were the ones who kicked arse and took names throughout this period.

I'm not sure, but I think even the Elite French would struggle against line, average but armoured, Brits!

[Scrumpy]

JD is Scottish not French?

[daveallen]

Hmm, why are your Determined Horse in two ranks?

The second rank can't fight so they should be used one deep, possibly with a single reserve base. That way you'll get maximum advantage at impact and possibly overlaps in melee.

Since most of any combat is made up of melee a disadvantage in melee is likely to be more telling than an initial advantage in impact. That is unless the opponent has disrupted or lost a base in impact.

Maybe it is just dice luck, but I'd rather have better quality than better armour. Actually I'd rather have both, but Scots can't be choosers...

Dave

[donm]

I would say lack of armour is your problem. An advantage in melee does appear to be telling, unless of course you throw good dice

The main problem I find with determined horse, is you end up fighting two units and where as you have all the casualties on one unit, your opponent is spreading them over two.

Don

[johngl]

Last time I played it was two ranks of Scots Covenanter mounted vs 1 rank (with 1 extra base in reserve) of Louis XIV cavalry.

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

He was using some kind of mounted in two ranks with average/armoured/shooting pistol/pistol.

Odd - Scots Covenanters can't have any armoured horse. In fact their Average pistol-armed horse are limited to only 4 bases, the rest being either Poor or armed with lances/swords. Louis XIV's chaps (or cavaliers, or Ironsides) should beat them easily with anything like equal numbers. Your opponent must have been using Parliamentarians with the Marston Moor option.

[david53]

Your opponent must have been using Parliamentarians with the Marston Moor option.

You can use half your points from the Parliamentarian army list

[list_lurker]

While I agree that the French are somewhat 'glass hammers', looking at a wider view.

The superior french get re-rolls on CMTs and COH tests. They also need 3 base losses to autobreak. They are also 'shock'. This for 18pts

The parliment horse - I'm assuming - are armoured pistol /pistol, 'horse' (not shock). No re-rolls and 2 bases to autobreak. A good stoic troop type for 10 pts.

The fights are level at impact , and french -POA (worse armour) during melee.

On a file by file basis, the parliment horse is committing 20pts (2 ranks). The french horse probably ought to be in a optimum 3 & 1 formation (24pts per file) but if not a single rank (18pts) or 2 ranks (36pts :-/).

Hits per file
Impact you have a slight advantage Avg (avg .5 hit per file), Sup ( avg ~.504 hits)
Melee you have a disadvantage Avg (avg .5 hit per file), Sup ( avg ~.35 hits)

Mitigating factors.
If things do go bad, then against horse you can break off, the horse don't have that luxury as you are 'shock' . you then get a chance to rally and have your slim advantage again (in this case best wait to be charged, to break off in your oponents JAP)
When the horse lose a base then they lose 1 dice. When the DH lose a base 'theorically' you should have a spare. If you are in single rank then really 20pt vs 18pts you should expect to lose.

you might have a options for overlaps, but the cheap horse usually comes 'mob handed'

there is a lot to consider!

[list_lurker]

If you think that is bad - wait til they fight armoured Sipahis...

while all goes well you are OK (level POA), if you disrupt straight to a --POA

[ravenflight]

Hmm, why are your Determined Horse in two ranks?

The second rank can't fight so they should be used one deep, possibly with a single reserve base.

I suggest you read my original post again.

[ravenflight]

The fights are level at impact , and french -POA (worse armour) during melee.

Dunno lists anywhere near as well as I do ancients, but I'm pretty sure I was up at impact as he had shooting pistol.

[list_lurker]

Dunno lists anywhere near as well as I do ancients, but I'm pretty sure I was up at impact as he had shooting pistol.

even better for the French

if he is avg arm pistol/-/pistol then charge !! you will be up in impact all being well you beat him, he'll lose a base and disrupt then its goodnight Vienna.

Hits per file
Impact you have a advantage Avg (avg .33 hit per file), Sup ( avg .61 hits)
Melee you have a disadvantage Avg (avg .50 hit per file), Sup ( avg ~.35 hits)

arm pistol/-/pistol is a strange type for scots , they are only allowed unarmoured ... and 1644 Marston Moor parliment can't have them either.

Throughout all of this what we've not mentioned is the 16 bases of french dragoons. That'll force the issue!

Overall I'd expect the French to win that flank battle. Then the scots centre will have a threatened flank and be shooting the french foot on -POA

[MatteoPasi]

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

Unarmoured are good for rear support only, to important to have the armour POA and they are quite good targhet for bowman too if unarmoured

[ravenflight]

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

Unarmoured are good for rear support only, to important to have the armour POA and they are quite good targhet for bowman too if unarmoured

So, I use my entire allocation of mounted as rear support to the foot?

Louis XIV don't have the option of armour in the later period.

[ravenflight]

Dunno lists anywhere near as well as I do ancients, but I'm pretty sure I was up at impact as he had shooting pistol.

even better for the French

if he is avg arm pistol/-/pistol then charge !! you will be up in impact all being well you beat him, he'll lose a base and disrupt then its goodnight Vienna.

Hits per file
Impact you have a advantage Avg (avg .33 hit per file), Sup ( avg .61 hits)
Melee you have a disadvantage Avg (avg .50 hit per file), Sup ( avg ~.35 hits)

arm pistol/-/pistol is a strange type for scots , they are only allowed unarmoured ... and 1644 Marston Moor parliment can't have them either.

Throughout all of this what we've not mentioned is the 16 bases of french dragoons. That'll force the issue!

Overall I'd expect the French to win that flank battle. Then the scots centre will have a threatened flank and be shooting the french foot on -POA

Simon,

I'm not 1000% confident on my POA's. He calculated them as I'm still trying to get my head around them. In FoG:AM I don't even look at the book, but in FoR:R I'm still trying to get to that point. I was pretty sure he was shooting pistol, but I could be wrong.

You've raised an interesting point with the Dragoons. I field 8 bases of Dragoons, and in this game used them on the other flank. I've thought of using them in conjunction with my mounted arm, but it seems as though they are touch and go. I mean they take up quite a bit of frontage, but can't really stand to fight. They can't be interpenetrated, so they can't hover in front of the cavalry. My original thought was to use them as a screen and shoot up the enemy and then fall back when things started going a bit tough for them and punch through with the mounted, but I just don't see a way of doing that.

Still learning tactics, so I may be able to learn how to do it in time.

[list_lurker]

There is definately a knack to using Dragoons, you always need to consider avenues of evasion. In the later Louis XIV they set it apart. 8 dragoons on each flank will cause most pause for though - esp 'in period' games. AVG mounted will not like to be shot by firearms...

[madaxeman]

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

Unarmoured are good for rear support only, to important to have the armour POA and they are quite good targhet for bowman too if unarmoured

So, I use my entire allocation of mounted as rear support to the foot?
Louis XIV don't have the option of armour in the later period.

Louis XIV needs to use at least 2 Superior units and a unit of Elites together to have even close to a half decent mounted force IMO, any less than that and you are using them to just delay combat until your foote go in.

The late period mounted are a bit weak vs the earlier period mounted as (as Dave Allen points out) an advantage in Impact isn't worth as much as an advantage in melee.

The only exception might be when the armoured (or better) horse you are facing are average, as then a win at impact may well DISR the enemy as well as knocking them down to 3 bases. That's probably why in the Louis XIV period pretty much everyone else's mounted are Average .... which doesn't help you against TYW Superior Cuirassiers though!

[MatteoPasi]

I'm using Determined Horse/Unarmoured/Superior/Pistol/Pistol.

Unarmoured are good for rear support only, to important to have the armour POA and they are quite good targhet for bowman too if unarmoured

So, I use my entire allocation of mounted as rear support to the foot?

Louis XIV don't have the option of armour in the later period.

I know, this list its not good for open competition

[benjones1211]

Hi Matteo

I used this army at Challenge in the UK earlier this year, I started with TYW French when I started with renassaince, last year I fought with Early Louis, then for Challange took late Loius. I manged 2nd (just, that australian bar man Simon almost caught me up 1pt difference )

I found that of the three French armies it was the hardest to work with (which is why I went back to TYW French for Britcon) . My list was

1691

2 Determined Horse Unarmoured/Superior
3 Guard Foot 5&1 Pike/Impact Foot
5 Infantry 5&1 Pike/Impact Foot
1 Artillery Medium
2 Dragoons 1x4 1x3

I used the Cavalry to support the infantry, the dragoons to hold up the flanks, tried to put as much terrain on them as possible, if not made sure I had a Guard unit on the flank to help out.

Overall the army can work but you have to go with the stengths, ie. the infantry.

Hope this helps

Ben

[MatteoPasi]

Thank Ben,
I've also had a list 'cose I have a french army but I had to discart it for Britcon and I did well as if I had these list with the same opponent I've had I'll probably had bad results (many sup armoured mouted and bowman)

[ravenflight]

Overall the army can work but you have to go with the stengths, ie. the infantry.

Agreed. I think the mounted LOOK like they're the strength, but in reality it's the infantry and the fact that the mounted can hold their own until the infantry do their thing.

Trouble is that the infantry isn't a guarantee either.