FOG IN GREECE

[gelin]

Hello everybody!
I am posting one of the first complete FOG games played in Athens a few weeks ago using the 29/05 rules and army lists.
We had a game between mine Middle Republican Romans vs Panos's Early German.
I opted for upgrading half the legions to veteran a wise choise as it was later proved
The terain was restrcited to my left with steep hills and in the left center with a gentle hill, my right was covered by a village.
I deployed the Equites BG on the left supported by velites and Elite triarii.These were faced with 1 german l.archer BG, 2 German Superior cavalry BG and 2 HF 2 Veteran hastati and principes BG,s where placed in the center followed by 2 ordinary legion BGs.The legionaries where faced by a massive warband battle line of heavy and medium foot. In the village Peditum Extraordinarii and velites, supported by triarii would try to hold the line against 4 BGs of MF German foot , 1 of Archer LF and 1 BG of Superior cavalry. The battle opened with the Germans advancing their whole line and the Romans starting to wheel based on the village. Both armies aimed at capturing the Gentle hill on the center left of the field. Due to a steep hill,the German advance was not as quick as the Roman and the equites managed to take the uphill just a few cm before the Germans reach the hill top. Roman infantry however was well back and i had 2 choices:either receive the german cavalry charge or attack them although 1 was outnumbered 2 to 1. Fortunately velites were chasing german LF arhers clearing the extreme left flank of the hill, and triarii would soon arive so i charged the closest German Cv BG (the other had not managed yet to form a solid line with the leading BG) . The impact was a draw but during the melee uphill and better armour gave Roman equites the upper hand! Soon the german cavalry started disintegrading and triaii plus veteran legionaries were ariving to counter 3 large German HF BGs coming to aid their cavalry. Hence the gentle hill skirmish was transformed into a major combat. In the center the German MF warbands charged the Roman line. The superior legionaries lost the impact and lost a cohesion leve while the ordinary ones stood their ground.This was the worst moment for the Romans as the 2 BGs defending the village were charged with the Extraorinarii losing a cohesion and the velites losing 2 cohesion levels. However during the melee face better armour and weapons ensured that the Wb in the center were stopped, and started taking serious casualties (including a general fitghting in the first line). The battle for the gentle hill was on the Roman side. The Roman cavalry after completerly routing the 1st german Cv BG charged the second one but this time it was a draw. The German HF also attacked the Equites and they started taking casulaties(but where still fighting uphill so managed to hold against 3 BGs for one round just enough for the elite triarii and veteran legionaries to attack the German HF, with the Romans having the uphill. Soon the German infanty starting pilling serious casualties. In the center the German assault waverd and the superior legionaries after wiping out the German MF charged a reserve MF Warband BG and started to chop it. At this time Panos admitted defeat and stopped.
The overall feeling was good. I had a feeling of grand strategy. I think FOG tactical level is a level higher than DBM (possibly caused by the fact that in DBM elements can be dettached to perform various microduties). Of course the element of lack and good dice is always there, but who said that we want to eliminate it??? The best bet for the Germans was during their charges and it was during their charges that almost took the center. However when this face ended and continued with the melee i was confident of winning the individual melees, and i did(armour and quality really count). Finally i found out that there are no recoils something unrealistic in my opinion. If there are now recoils how can we play historical battles like Cannae? Wouldn't be much more realistic when a BG lose an impact or a melle to be forced to recoil for an MU ?
Cheers
Yiorgos

[nikgaukroger]

I understand that the authors view is that recoils/push backs that had a material effect on the battel were, in fact, rather rare and that the added rules/time taken would not be of any actual value.

Cannae is obviously a (famous) exception but how many are there were it made a difference to the battle? I guess if you can supply a long list they would reconsider.

[hammy]

Recoils were present in the earlier versions of FoG but they did add significant complication for very little gain. I think they were removed as part of the simplification process.

Recoils in DBM are part of the combat mechanism because they provide overlaps and without them the combat system doesn't work. The FoG combat system doesn't require recoils for it to work.

Hammy

[gelin]

I understand that the authors view is that recoils/push backs that had a material effect on the battel were, in fact, rather rare and that the added rules/time taken would not be of any actual value.

Cannae is obviously a (famous) exception but how many are there were it made a difference to the battle? I guess if you can supply a long list they would reconsider.

Well, my knowldedge for medieval warfare is not extensive but for example coming in mind is in the battle of Ankara the Serbians pushed back Timurid cavalry. In Stoke fields, the rebels where pushed back from the ridge they were defending by King Henry's VII men, while at Bannockbern Scottish infanty engaged and pushed back English cavalry.
In antiquity we have many accounts of phalanxes pushing back legions (head on) eg Heraclia, Kynos Kephales, Pydna and these pushbacks played a significant role in the battle as the flanks of the winning phalanxes were exposed and attacked. In Marathon again we have a similar act as the flanks of the Persians initially recoiled and then fled while the Athenian center was steadily giving ground to the Persian center. In Sellasia the Macedonians and Illyrians are reported attacking Spartans who where on a hill. The Spartans were stedily being forced to recoil, lost the uphill advantage and when they lost the uphill where quickly broken. I am sure that if i do a quick research i can find many battles with recoils that affected the cource of the battle...

[gelin]

Recoils were present in the earlier versions of FoG but they did add significant complication for very little gain. I think they were removed as part of the simplification process.

Recoils in DBM are part of the combat mechanism because they provide overlaps and without them the combat system doesn't work. The FoG combat system doesn't require recoils for it to work.

Hammy

Recoil cannot be used only for a combat mechanish purposes. In the battle i describe, when i managed to take the uphill just for a few cms i would have the uphill advantage for a long as my unit could fight. I found that a bit unrealistic as this would end up with moves that take an advantage just for a few cm and hold it to utter win or defeat...

[hammy]

Recoil cannot be used only for a combat mechanish purposes. In the battle i describe, when i managed to take the uphill just for a few cms i would have the uphill advantage for a long as my unit could fight. I found that a bit unrealistic as this would end up with moves that take an advantage just for a few cm and hold it to utter win or defeat...

Yes, that is a valid point but having played FoG with and without recoils I can say that recoils definitley make things a LOT more complicated and you gain very little in the end.

If you include recoils you end up with lots of issues where one BG is fighting more than one BG and the lone BG wins against one enemy and loses against the other. Do you end up advancing with part of a BG? What happens if one BG is fighting two and the two are at an angle to each other? There are loads of issues and they really complicate things.

Some historical battles where one side advances a significant distance can be looked at as where a front line of BG's is broken and then the victors pursue.

I find it hard to imagine any formation of troops managing to hold together if it is being pushed back perhaps 50 yards (roughly 1 MU in FoG terms). What is more likely in this situation is that the front ranks would be pushed into the rear ranks and the whole lot just ends up in a big pile of people who would hardly be able to fight.

Hammy