Austrian Cuirassiers + Arty: What to Do??!!??

[Blathergut]

So, Deadtorius is now running around with 2 6pak Austrian cuirassiers with artillery attachments.

How do I fight those beasts?

Heads on vs a small infantry unit (let's make it light infantry as a best case):

a) cuirassiers shoot 2 dice (assume they are 2 wide & 3 deep for upcoming rear support) @ medium range
...light infantry shoots 3 dice (with one hit removed for hitting a large target)...so we are even on the shooting

b) cuirassier charge in...if I stand to fire...(passing cohesion test but let's say disordered previously)...3 dice needing 4s...one hit removed...I need to hit all 3 (although if I hit with 2 I might stall him)

c) cuirassier charge in...if I form square...(again, make me disordered)...2 dice needing 4s...at best I stall him

d) cuirassier hit tactical unit...6 + 1(shock vs inf) = 7 dice @ 3s vs 6 (-2 disordered) - 1(inf vs shock) = 3 @ 5s (So...no way inf can stand and fire if disordered)

e) cuirassier hit square...4 + 1(artillery) = 5 @ 5s (mounted fighting square) vs 4 -1(disordered) = 3 @ 5s (vs shock)...a bit of a chance but barely.

I've cancelled out rear support. I've not included any flank support (assumed cancelled somehow).

So, how do I beat the beasts? Just hoping shooting slows/stops them?

[deadtorius]

Turn your backs, and let us just ride you down like the lowly dogs you are
That way with luck they won't get spent from combat

[Scrumpy]

Would you like some fromage with your cheap French whine? Archduke Scrumpy....

[panda2]

So, Deadtorius is now running around with 2 6pak Austrian cuirassiers with artillery attachments.

How do I fight those beasts?

Heads on vs a small infantry unit (let's make it light infantry as a best case):

I think the answer to your question lies in the last phrase. You are essentially wondering why a unit costing 48 pts loses to a unit costing 106 pts! If the result was the other way round then it might be a more legimate concern. Try running the the scenario again with a large unit of infantry with an artillery attachment (costing 70 pts) and see how things look.

Andy D

[Blathergut]

I get that the 106pts beats the 40pts. Just trying to figure out some strategy to deal with the beasts. He'll avoid the 70pt unit, curse him!

[panda2]

I realise that not everyone will want or be able to have their front line made up almost entirely of large units of infantry (not all armies are Austrian!). However, I think the points difference is important since it highlights that in most circumstances you should be able to afford to have other units around to help out. One thing to consider is that for the 242 pts that his cuirassier division costs (including a competant DC) you could buy a French division with 2 small line infantry units, a small light infantry unit, a small artillery unit, a small unit of chasseurs and have an artillery attachment. So it may be worth considering how pairs of units (at least) can work together to nullify the threat of a single cuirassier unit.

I normally manuveour my front line infantry units in pairs (or sometimes threes if I have a skilled commander) and only have single units operating in support positions and I'm sure you do the same. This should enable you to make it very difficult for the cuirassiers to assault without also having to take defensive fire from an adjacent unit when you consider the limitions on wheels during assaults. After all, you will have had the last move before he assaults and should be able, in most cases, to ensure that he can't just charge a single unit without clipping the short range zone of another. To avoid this he would have to manuveour into a position to the flank of one end of your line, which is not always going to be possible, especially if he is also trying to soften you up with his artillery attachment at the same time. If he does, however, suceed in getting into such a position you'll want to form a square before he assaults and try to get a least one unit in position to offer flank support in the forthcoming melee (he cannot get flank support against a square, however, a square can get flank support, but no rear support).

However, if all that seems a bit complex and fiddely, here's another couple of thoughts:

Suicide Chasseurs: Assault his cuirassiers with a 32pt small unit of chasseurs. Your only objective is to do the one hit necessary to make his cuirassiers spent, losing him 1 dice per 3 for the rest of the game and making it much easier for you infantry to survive. There is actually a reasonable chance that your chasseurs will not rout, but only be reduced to wavering. So you may be able to get some use out of them later in the game. Even if the worst happens and they rout and don't recover, then 32pts (and 2AFC) may well be worth losing to reduce the effectiveness of a 106 pt unit by a third (and lose him 1 AFC).

Fire with Fire: A large unit of Superior Veteran Curassiers from your own cavalry reserve costs 120 points. Although his artillery attachment gives him an extra dice in a melee, the rerolls from being superior more than offset it (he averages 4.5 hits, you average 4.66 hits). You will also have a better chance of recovering cohesion and taking CMTs as well, which may make the extra points worth it. It may also be worth looking at large units of Dragoons as well. Dragoons with rear support hold up pretty well against cuirassiers without rear support, although I don't believe you can have superior veteran dragoons. You could use suicide chasseurs to even up the odds for cheaper dragoons.

Andy D

[Blathergut]

Why no flank support vs square? We had a situation in the game yesterday. Deadtorius was going to charge a unit of lancers straight onto the corner of a square and then move a unit of hussars or such up beside his lancers and claim flank support. Not legal?

[Blathergut]

Ah...those cheapie light cavalry can try another snazzy little move too!

I'll let you know if it works out next time!

P.S.: You know you have become the rules guru here! I should put you in for moderator status!!!!

[panda2]

Squares have no flanks, but more importantly on p.56 it states:

"Cavalry to the flank do not provide support dice against enemy squares or enemy defending obstacles."

Andy D

[terrys]

e) cuirassier hit square...4 + 1(artillery) = 5 @ 5s (mounted fighting square) vs 4 -1(disordered) = 3 @ 5s (vs shock)...a bit of a chance but barely.

You don't have to beat the cuirassiers to win the melee. All you need to do is survive (which means taking less than 4 hits). 5 dice at 5's are not likely to hit 4 times.
The real question is what happens to the Cuirassiers:
1) You cause no hits - this is a disaster. The cuirassiers pass through your unit unspent
2) You cause 1 or 2 hits (most common result) - The cuirassiers still pass through your square, but are now spent.
You really need to be more concerned about what happens should the Cuirassiers pass through you square. Try putting another unit in square behind the first.

With large units of cuirassiers around, you should really be forming square before he charges.
You should also be trying to get some sort of flank support - 2 extra dice will make a Huge difference.

One more thing to remember is that as soon as his cuirassiers declare a charge (assuming you can manage a single hit) it loses 35pts in combat ability (1/3 of 106) and also loses a full point of attrition.

[bahdahbum]

By the way, if you put a square behind a square ...or any unit behind a square, the cavalry cannot pass trough as there is not enough space for it to have some space behind the square ! .

[atatnet]

Which Austrian list allows 2 6pak Austrian cuirassiers with artillery attachments in the same division?

[Blathergut]

Which Austrian list allows 2 6pak Austrian cuirassiers with artillery attachments in the same division?

Austrian Reserve Corps, Army of the Danube 1809...the cuirassiers formed into a division included in the 1809 Infantry corps.

[Blathergut]

Thanks for all the tips! Nice to see some discussion going on! I'll have to see if I can manage a couple units in reserve behind the front line...am always so stretched to match the Austrian hordes!!

[KendallB]

Why don't you just get your own cuirassiers?

[Blathergut]

Too expensive and they have such an attitude about themselves!

(I have in the past, and may in the future run them. Just trying out different versions of the corps. Tried the superior/veteran version and was overwhelmed by numbers. The latest, average drilled and compact won quite handily, given good circumstances and actually fielded more units than the Austrians. I didn't count bases though.)

So, just different versions of the army to see how things work. I'd probably rather have a couple units of cheap average drilled light cavalry than the snazzy cuirassiers. But then, next time, who knows. The figures are here.

[BrettPT]

How about a 32 point LC unit in single deep line?

Rush forward to pin his double moves, fall back/evade to the base line & die when you get there. However the 3-4 turns it takes him to do this effectively means his uber-unit has been taken out of the game, while you beat him up somewhere else.

[Blathergut]

How about a 32 point LC unit in single deep line?

Rush forward to pin his double moves, fall back/evade to the base line & die when you get there. However the 3-4 turns it takes him to do this effectively means his uber-unit has been taken out of the game, while you beat him up somewhere else.

That is exactly what I did last game! Only it was two cheapie LC units vs two of those uber-units + a horse arty unit!! I suspect the cuirassiers won't go on a flank anymore!

[viperofmilan]

You don't have to beat the cuirassiers to win the melee. All you need to do is survive (which means taking less than 4 hits).

This is exactly right. I know that in my gaming circle we often fall into the trap of comparing number of hits to determine a winner. FoGN doesn't really work that way. As long as your square is not broken, you "win" in the sense that you stand and the cavalry must either break off or pass through (depending on your unit arrangment and how much damage you do to him) while a single combat hit will make the cuirassier permanently spent.

Kevin

[deadtorius]

By the way, if you put a square behind a square ...or any unit behind a square, the cavalry cannot pass trough as there is not enough space for it to have some space behind the square

Austria learned that lesson a while ago, never had to deal with cavalry and squares before, so put front unit in square, rear unit stayed in line, Dragoons passed through, rear unit went ouch!!!

Thats a lesson Austria won't be forgetting at least.